Silenced No More with Meagan Justus

Lisa Cooper Ellison [0:01] Well, hello, Meagan, welcome to the Writing Your Resilience Podcast. I’m so happy to have you on.

Meagan Justus [0:20] I’m excited to be here, and very much looking forward to our conversation today. Thanks for having me.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [0:30] Well, you have two really important questions that I know are on people’s minds, and I’m really excited to dive into them. I just want to say I’m excited to be here with you, because I am a fan of your writing, and because you are in one of my writing groups, I get the pleasure of hearing your writing all the time. You also have an amazing Substack — which, listeners, you need to subscribe to—but that’s just my opinion. I always start by giving the guest a chance to share a little about themselves. What would you like us to know about you?

Meagan Justus [0:53] Well, I’m a writer living in Virginia, and I am an advocate exploring the messy middle of chronic illness, disability, and trauma. I try to blend honesty and humor in my writing.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [1:09] And I’m going to say you don’t just try — you deliver—because I’ve had a chance to hear it, and I love that you’re able to blend these two things together. The chronic illness space, just in terms of the experience, can be really dark. I say that as someone who has lived with chronic illness and has experienced that. And you have a way of making these really pithy, important points while also making them a little funny.

Meagan Justus [1:44] Thank you. I try.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [1:55] You definitely do. Well, this is one of my Ask Me Anything sessions, and so this is an opportunity for writers who are in the middle of the process to ask a question about something on their mind related to the writing process. What question would you like to start with?

Meagan Justus [2:08] I wanted to ask about — I have a number of essays that I’m working toward more of an essay collection, and I feel like I have enough to make a book, potentially. But I also feel like I keep circling the core of my story and not really being able to get to the middle of it and write it. So, I’m trying to figure out: do I stop and try to pull the themes of what I already have and make a book with what I already have, or do I just keep writing until I get all of it down and get to that core content?

Lisa Cooper Ellison [2:47] That’s a great question, and there can be many answers, but I want to explore one. Why do we circle around our stories — and then what can we do to get out of that experience of trying to revise or write into infinity? Because I know a lot of writers who can get trapped in that, where a project is taking fifteen or twenty years, they have hundreds of thousands of words written, and they don’t feel any closer to the end than when they began.

So let me unpack just why we circle around the core of our stories. Sometimes we circle around it because we don’t actually know what the story is. I know that’s not the case for you, but for some people it’s: I know all these experiences are important to me — they bring me joy, or they connect me to a pain I haven’t yet processed — and yet I don’t know how they go together. If that’s the case, one of the ways you can handle it is by putting everything together and seeing the pieces in line to see how they might connect.

A couple of ways you can do that — one is something the guys from South Park use: it’s the “but/therefore” principle. That’s a way to create cause and effect. As you do that, you’re constantly asking yourself: how have I changed? How am I different? Sometimes we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to show some extremely dramatic change, and that may not be the case. Sometimes the changes we experience are pretty simple and understated, and yet change still occurs. That’s one way to approach it, and you can augment that process with a beat sheet. You can look at The Queen’s Path. There are a lot of different frameworks. And if you’re interested in learning how to do that, you can find “Find and Refine Your Memoir’s Narrative Arc” on April 29, a webinar I’m teaching for Jane Friedman. So, if that’s the reason you’re circling around your story, those are some different strategies you can use.

However, if you’re circling around your story because there’s a pain point that’s difficult to dive into, then the strategies will be different. Sometimes when we have a really difficult thing that has happened to us—a really difficult experience—we need time to be able to get to it. And some writers will look at the same experience in different ways over time, across different projects. That’s one opportunity, and I’ll give you two examples of memoirists who’ve done this.

Nick Flynn wrote Another Bullshit Night in Suck City, which is a memoir about finding his father. But one of the big things he talks about is his mother’s suicide. He had also written about that in a much shorter, more compressed way in his poetry collection, Some Ether. He returns to it in other books as well, such as The Ticking Is the Bomb. So, there are ways he explored that experience over time.

Mary Karr is another author who did that. One of the primary experiences of her life is that her mother tried to kill her when she was young during a psychotic episode. In The Liar’s Club, she talks about that, but she doesn’t go too deep into the experience — and really the focus of that book is how secrets can destroy families. Because the big secret that led to that psychotic episode is that she had lost children before Mary was even born. She had another set of children, and she lost custody of them. It’s hard to say whether she lost custody of them due to her mental health challenges, or if that exacerbated her mental health challenges—I don’t know enough about that part of the story, but in the very final chapter of the book, we learn about that experience and how it impacted her. So that’s one way she talks about it, and she kind of glances against that experience of almost being killed by her mother. She returns to it in Cherry, touching on it a bit — though that book is more of a coming-of-age, growing-into-yourself, understanding-your-identity story. And then in Lit, which is the book where she confronts her alcoholism and regains her religion and her sense of spirituality, she addresses that in greater detail. So sometimes we need multiple projects to get to something. And what I love about thinking about it that way is that it gives you license to take your time. It takes the pressure away. And sometimes, if you’re like, “I need to say it in this book, and I only want one book — I’m not doing this multiple times” — then it may be about how you take care of yourself in the writing process.

So, as you think about your project and what I’ve just shared, what’s coming to mind?

Meagan Justus [8:38] Patience with myself — that’s the first thing. And I think for me, there is reason for fear. So, I realize that, yes, I know I’m circling around the core content and maybe it’s not about putting that pressure on myself. I am getting to it. It almost — I get the visual of a little funnel cloud, where you’re starting up here, and you need to get to the bottom, but you’re just going to have to take some time to write essays that touch on it, and then the next one goes a different angle, or a little deeper, until I can really get there.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [9:12] Yes. And I love that you created that really beautiful metaphor of the funnel cloud. What we want to make sure we don’t do — if we think about it in terms of a whirlpool in water — is get sucked down to the bottom into a space where we drown in our own experience and our own material. So being able to tread water and circle around it in a way that feels safe is really important. And I have the benefit of knowing more about your topics, the things that you write about, and it could be a way to really claim your voice and glance against that experience. You could write about one of the ancillary topics. There’s a core topic I know you’re trying to dive deeply into, but there are other topics, other angles, you could explore. For instance, you could write a book just about chronic illness — which is one of the topics you do write about — and maybe glance again against some of these other things I know you want to write about. That might give you a chance to claim your voice, develop all the skills to take a project from beginning to end, and get something done that feels satisfying and gives you a sense of success. Then, when you understand what that whole process is like, you can apply all the wisdom from working on that book to the next layer of experiences you want to explore. What do you think about that?

Meagan Justus [11:15]That definitely feels right. I think in the beginning I was sort of not against writing a chronic illness book per se, but there are just so many out there, and I’m like, what different thing — what added thing — can I put into that space? But I actually do think I have a lot to add. And I think you’re right: being able to touch on some of those topics, even if they’re more current day, means I’m still writing, I’m still circling, but I have content that could be used in that way. So yeah, I think that fits really well.

Lis Cooper Ellison [11:53] Yes. And what I would say is that you do have something new to say about chronic illness, because you have this way of getting to the point. And I’ll just say, as a person who has dealt with chronic illness and is kind of dealing with it right now—you make me feel seen. You make me feel seen, Megan, in a way that I haven’t yet experienced. And I think that’s the power of your work. You make me laugh while you do it — there’s this moment where I’m like, “Damn, mic drop, that is so true” — and yet I’m also laughing. So, there’s that mixture of honesty and pain and struggle alongside some of the funnier elements and the ridiculousness that we confront.

So, you have a strategy now. You can work on arranging the material you already have into a book on chronic illness and go through that process. But you came with another question — and it may be related to this new project you’re going to work on, or it could be something else. What is that?

Meagan Justus [13:36] It was about grappling with — when you have a story that implicates people of power or institutions, and you have that push-pull of the fear of speaking versus wanting to get your story out on paper, and just trying to navigate — how do you do that in a way that both protects yourself and just — how do you navigate that push-pull between “speak” and “don’t speak”?

Lisa Cooper Ellison [14:12] Yeah, and I think that’s really important, because so many memoirists — especially those who have experienced trauma — have felt silenced for most of their lives, or they’ve felt like their experience is irrelevant in some way. So being able to write is a form of claiming power, and that is a very important thing to do. I think you can write about anything for yourself, or for a very small group of trusted people in your writing community, as a way of claiming that power. But then when you think about what to share with the public, it can be tricky. Because I want to tell you that you can write whatever you want, and you can own your truth, and nothing is ever going to happen to you. And if I said that, not only would it be irresponsible — it would be a lie. Because when it comes to getting sued, that’s what we’re going to talk about now: how do you protect yourself from lawsuits, or repercussions of any sort, when it comes to writing about — or writing against — power, in all the forms that can take?

First, I want to say from the outset: I am not a lawyer. If you have deep questions about your book, I’m going to direct you to two places. One is the Authors Guild. If you are a member, they can help you connect with an entertainment lawyer, and you get some benefits around that. So, if you have these concerns, that’s the first thing I would do — and always consult an entertainment lawyer if you have questions beyond what the Authors Guild can provide. Don’t just take what I say as the final word, and I’ll be very careful in how I talk about this, because I don’t want to get anything wrong. So again, always consult a lawyer.

That said, when it comes to getting sued: really, anyone could sue you at any time if they wanted to. The people most likely to sue are people who have resources — meaning money — to pursue it or to try to get your project shut down. So, if someone has power in any shape or form, that likelihood increases. What you want to do is really understand libel and defamation of character — understand what those things are.

Because this is a question I get all the time: “Can I just change the names, maybe change the description — isn’t that enough?” And it’s not. Here’s why: a general reader who knows nothing about you is not going to question it. So, let’s say you have a husband named Bob, and that’s who you’re writing about — a general reader is not going to guess who Bob really is. But someone who knew you during the period you’re writing about is going to know who Bob is. No matter what color hair you give him, no matter what name, no matter how tall or short you make him — they will know. And because of that, simply changing names and details is not enough.

If you’re writing against power, it’s really important to have proof. I had a client who did this fearlessly. This person had diary entries, books with relevant information, documentation of all kinds. They went through legal vetting at the publishing house — the publisher connected her with a lawyer, and the author had to provide all that documentation. It was a grueling process. It took days, and they kept having to produce more and more documentation. Anything that couldn’t be documented had to be stricken from the manuscript.

There are different ways a lawyer might suggest you do that. They may say take it out entirely, because the risk of being sued is too high — only a lawyer can make that call. But more often, they might say: adjust the language. Use this word instead of that one. Phrase the sentence this way. The legal vetting process can guide you through all of that. I’ll put a link in the show notes to an Authors Guild webinar on legal vetting where you can learn more.

And I would say: if you’re working with a small publisher, or you’re self-publishing, and you know you’re speaking against power or saying things that could put you at risk of being sued, going through that legal vetting process — even if it’s just for a portion of your manuscript — could help you enormously. I’ve talked to a number of people who were very successful, and I can think of one example in particular. This person self-published. They thought they had done everything right, and then something happened later on — a legal entanglement they had to deal with. Had they gone through legal vetting, that might not have happened.

It was resolved fine and isn’t an issue for that person now, but it was pretty stressful for a period of time, and they almost had to take their book off the market because of it. So legal vetting is something you definitely want to look into if you’re considering it.

The other thing I’ll say is that you can’t necessarily count on your publisher to do that. And that’s where I want to talk about Amy Griffin’s memoir, The Tell. I will put a gift link in the show notes to an article from the New York Times where they did an extensive investigation into this book, so if you want to read more, you can. A lawsuit is coming out of that book, so I’m just going to give you the gist so you understand.

Amy Griffin is someone who has a lot of money, and she wrote a memoir about how she recovered a memory of severe sexual abuse during a psychedelic experience. So, she writes about this recovered memory — that’s what the memoir is about — and it includes some very vivid and graphic depictions of sexual assault.

Probably because she has a lot of money, or perhaps because she knows how to make connections, she was connected to some very powerful people — Gwyneth Paltrow, Oprah, and I could probably name a few more. All these people endorsed her book, which meant a few things. One, because she had those connections prior to getting her book deal, she got a really big deal — hundreds of thousands of dollars. She did work with a ghostwriter who helped with the writing, but she got this big deal, and then all these famous, well-known people promoted the book, which meant a lot of copies sold. But as The New York Times began to investigate, there were some holes in the story that didn’t add up. And, she accused a teacher at the school she attended of horrific sexual abuse. And this is where I come back to that point about not just changing names. She changed the names and possibly some descriptions of this person, but the students who were at that school at that time put two and two together and figured out who that teacher was — so that person was outed. That’s a whole issue in itself.

And I’ll say — this is a story that is still unfolding. I’m talking about it at a specific point in time, so the information could change. This is what I’m telling you based on what is out there now.

The New York Times did an investigation and looked for other victims of this teacher who could corroborate what had happened, and no other victims came forward — which they found unusual, because typically in cases of really horrific abuse, more people come forward. That alone doesn’t mean Amy’s story is false, but it was a red flag.

Another red flag: her account of the abuse was very similar to abuse that had happened to another person named in the book, who was, I believe, in the foster care system — someone who did not have a lot of power. That person had been abused by someone else, not this teacher, but someone else within the school system. And it’s possible that Amy used that person’s story as her own. It’s possible—and in fact, there is a lawsuit around it. The outcome of that lawsuit we don’t yet know, but it is in process.

So, here’s what I want you to take from this: how did that happen? How did this book get published, get past the publisher’s team, and make it out into the world? Who was fact-checking it? The answer, in many cases with memoir, is no one. There can even be clauses in publishing contracts stating that you attest the information is correct and that you will hold the publisher harmless. So, what’s going to happen with this? I believe the lawsuit names the publisher, the ghostwriter, and Amy, the author. We don’t know where that’s going to go, but I think it’s a great example of why it’s so important for authors to pay attention to what they’re writing and to legally vet their work — especially if they’re speaking against power or saying things that could cause real harm to another person. That doesn’t mean you have to shy away from bad things that have happened and shove them under the rug — I’m not suggesting that. But if you want to protect yourself, make sure you can verify things.

Meagan Justus [26:28] Yeah, that’s really helpful.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [26:34] Well, I know I shared a lot — is any of this bringing something to mind for you?

Meagan Justus [26:42] No, other than just dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s if I were to go forward with writing certain content.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [26:53] Yes. And what I would say — for all listeners — is this: if you have a story on your heart, and it’s really important to you to own your truth and your power, write it for yourself. Don’t silence yourself based on anything I’ve said. However, if you are sharing this with a wider audience, with the public, you owe it to yourself and to your story to do exactly what you said, Meagan — dot the i’s, cross the t’s, double-check every single fact, and consider legal vetting, whether your publisher offers it or not.

Meagan Justus [27:38] That’s really helpful.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [27:41] Well, as we wrap up today, I just want to ask you one more question: how do you tap into your resilience as you’re working on your stories?

Meagan Justus [27:54] Oh—well, I’m always looking for the humor, even in the hardest things.

And just reminding myself I’ve already survived so much—the hardest part is over.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [28:05] I love that. Amazing self-talk, finding the humor. And I’m going to say this because, again, I’ve had the chance to read your work: you are a master of the hermit crab form. You have this beautiful way of taking a story and placing it inside another form. And if you’re listening and thinking, “hermit crab — what are you talking about?” I will put a link in the show notes so you can learn more.

Well, Megan, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was an absolute pleasure to have you and to explore these wonderful questions together.

Meagan Justus [29:10] Thanks for having me. It was really helpful.