Self-Acceptance, Dating Disasters, and Life After Loss

Lisa [00:00]:

Well, hello, Debbie. Welcome to the Writing Your Resilience podcast. I’m so happy to have you on.

Debbie [00:05]:

Thank you, Lisa, for having me. I appreciate it.

Lisa [00:07]:

Well, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to read your book, Available As Is. I love, love, love this cover—it’s so great! And, you know, there was this aspect of it… It’s memoir, and it definitely has that flavor, but it also has this soap-opera-y, fiction flavor that made me think about it between readings and made me so excited to come back to it.

Debbie [00:37]:

Oh, well, thank you. I kind of wanted it to read like fiction. That’s what I wanted to do when I was writing it.

Lisa [00:44]:

Well, you accomplished that! We’re going to dive deep into your book, but before we do, I always like to give the author a chance to tell us anything they’d like us to know about the story.

Debbie [00:55]:

Well, it’s all true. The timeframe is condensed, and names have been changed, but it’s basically the true story. It’s about losing my husband and high school sweetheart of 32 years. He passed when I was 49. We’d been together since I was 17, and I’d known him since I was 7. So, it was about creating a new life and trying to become a new person after widowhood.

Lisa [1:21]:

Yeah. And to me, when I was reading this, some of the things I really liked—we’re going to get into the dating piece, which was a very fun and interesting way to explore grief—but this is also a book about layered grief.

Debbie [01:35]:

Yeah.

Lisa [01:36]:

You know, because George’s death isn’t the only big loss that this narrator faced. You also lost your mom when you were very young.

Debbie [01:47]:

I did. I lost my mom when I was 10. She died four days before my 10th birthday. And it’s funny, the timing of this recording, because the anniversary of her death is tomorrow, August 9th, and that’ll be 51 years. So, yeah, she died when I was 10. That, I think, very much informed who I became as a person and the choices I made for the rest of my life and wound up with George. You know, “motherless daughters” is a theme I look at in the book, and it’s something that shaped my life.

Lisa [02:20]:

So, what research have you done on motherless daughters? Is there something you discovered as you were writing this book that became an “aha” moment?

Debbie [2:32]:

Not so much. I looked at this stuff more when I was a little younger, during college and law school. One thing that did strike me was that sense of resilience, the sense of being self-sufficient. That was something I was raised with after my mom died. I’m an only child, and I was kind of raised like a little grown-up.

Lisa [2:59]:

Yeah, you had to grow up fast. Your father’s wonderful—the way you portray him in this book. And yet, you know, there were so many things he couldn’t do for you because he didn’t understand what it’s like to be a teenage girl. So, you had to figure out a lot of things on your own, even though, of course, he did try. So, there was this death, and then George dies. I was thinking about how to describe this, and part of me says he died suddenly—not because it was a sudden death, but because your awareness of what was happening came on suddenly.

Debbie [3:24]:

That’s true. Yeah. Part of the book very much focuses on George really trying to insulate me from the experience of what he was going through. He had cancer and didn’t let me be a partner in all of that. I wasn’t handling it proactively enough, looking back. So, it’s about what that was like, and then becoming a whole person after that, dealing with the aftermath. Why was it like that? Why was this so truncated and strange?

Lisa [04:14]:

Although maybe, you know, losing someone prematurely like that is naturally truncated and strange. Yeah. I think it is in a certain way. And yet, there was a certain way this was presented to you, which people need to read your book to fully understand, but also a certain story you might have been bringing to the table, both as someone who lost a significant family member early on and then, you know, suddenly this is happening. He died from male breast cancer.

Debbie [04:46]:

Yeah, he did. That’s very rare. So, yeah, I was kind of like, “Why us?” That wasn’t hereditary in his family, although his two uncles died somewhat young, though not as young, from lung cancer. So yeah, it was like, “Oh my God, this is happening again in my life, and it’s a weird, rare kind of cancer in men.”

 Sometimes, when I read things afterward, there’s this expression, “There is no why.” I think that was something I had to think about, too.

Lisa [05:25]:

Yeah. That makes sense because when we go through loss, especially unexpected loss, part of our brain tries to make sense of it. It’s trying to figure out how we could have controlled the situation. At least in my experience of losing my brother to suicide, which is different but also an unexpected loss, I wrestled with “why.” What I realized is that wrestling with “why” buffered me from really having to feel all the feelings. It also gave me this illusion of control—like I could have changed it, made it better, or made different decisions.

Debbie [06:13]:

That makes sense. I think we look for the “why” in things that are premature and inexplicable. We like a sense of control: “I could have done this better.” We’re a society very focused on process improvement. And as a former lawyer, it’s very much, “How could I have handled this effectively?” Even thinking of all those Lifetime movies, which always portray deaths from cancer as this sort of spiritual awakening. But that’s not what it’s like—it’s quite messy.

Lisa [06:47]:

 Yes, it is.

Debbie [06:49]:

And disturbing, and sad. Movies don’t really show that. But yeah, I think we are trained to look for ways to fix it, and maybe the answer is, well, you couldn’t.

Lisa [07:03]:

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as I think about this—this is a cancer memoir in a way, and a grief memoir. And I’m sure you’ve heard this before because you’re a writer. These are difficult topics to write about, because they’ve been written about before. If no one had ever had cancer in the history of the world, and you wrote the first cancer memoir, it would be inventive and revolutionary. But it has been written before, and the same thing with grief. I say this as a writer who also writes about grief. We always have to figure out what question hasn’t been answered yet. How can we find a new angle so our story is both universal—many people can connect with it because we all lose someone at some point—and unique? How did you accomplish that goal in your book?

Debbie [08:10]:

Well, I hope I did. I tried to look at it through the prism of about 14 months after I lost my husband and was ready to date again. So, I was looking at grief through the lens of dating, but the bigger theme for me was creating a new person when I never really created a “new person” in the first place. You know, I went straight from my dad to my husband. George was four years older, had a strong personality, and controlled how we lived. That was fine with me at the time. So, I’d gone straight from college to law school, to dad, to husband. By the time I was 49, my life was very insular. I didn’t have friends or connections. It was like, “How do I create a life? How do I live?” So, I tried to explore that journey and what it’s like to start dating as a grown-up. Being grown up is kind of funny! You feel like you’re 12, but you have major credit cards and a sports car. I had my late husband’s sports car and credit cards, and I thought, “Okay, now what do I want to do?” I wanted it to be funny because dating is funny.

Lisa [9:46]:

And thinking about the context of this dating part—which we’ll talk about next—had you dated much before George? I don’t remember reading about other boyfriends.

Debbie [09:58]:

There weren’t any! I was a high school geek, so I didn’t date much. I’d known George since I was seven. We started dating when I was 17 because I needed a date for my senior prom, and we hung out a little before then. So, he was my one and only. I didn’t date before George, and then we were together for 32 years until he passed. So, no.

Lisa [10:22]:

So, this isn’t just limited experience; it’s no experience.

Debbie [10:28]:

Virtually none. Right.

Lisa [10:29]:

And not only are you trying to do this at a different time of life, but the rules of dating have changed. You know, even if you had been dating a lot in 1980, it’s different now. And so, there were all these banana situations that you end up in with these guys. And, you know, tell us a little bit about why you wanted to add so much of this in? And I agree; I think it was a great way to do it. But what did you learn from really looking at your dating life?

Debbie [11:06]:

Well, unfortunately, you know, I learned that there was this battle between older men and women. I felt like there was this real underlying hostility. And to me, it seemed to stem from how boys and girls were raised in the 80s and 90s, with these typical gender roles. It really felt like men were thinking, wow, it didn’t work being a good husband. Now, I just want to get laid. They didn’t seem to really like women very much. There was this sense of revenge, hostility, and even an abnegation of responsibility and kindness.

What was weird for me was, as time went on, I had women friends my age—early fifties, doing things like yoga and hiking. And these women weren’t that crazy. It was the men, and the dating situations, that were so absurd. If you meet ten people for coffee, maybe nine are normal. But if you meet people online for a first date, eight out of ten are going to be crazy. There’s always something fundamentally wrong there, but that’s only in the dating arena. It felt like this huge, hostile issue that people aren’t really acknowledging.

Lisa [12:48]:

I’m connecting this to Anne Garvin, a fiction writer. She had a tweet go viral a few months ago where she was dating at 60 and went out with a man around her age. He was a jerk, and his biggest disappointment was that she was a 60-year-old woman. He thought he deserved a younger woman, disregarding this amazing, incredibly smart person in front of him. I got that sense from your book, too, that dating is hard, but especially as older women, we’re expected to be invisible. There’s a belief that women 50 and above have lost their attractiveness, so it’s fine for men to discount us.

Debbie [14:11]:

Yes! That sense of you should be grateful for any attention. I met men who were so patronizing. My mantra became, I’m a widow, but I’m not a moron. Men would say things like, oh, you own your home? Be careful, someone might take advantage of you. It was as if they couldn’t accept that I was independent.

There’s this entitlement among men—respectfully, many of whom are not in great shape or conventionally attractive—but who want young, slender women. Why would we want to be with someone who isn’t compassionate or kind?

Lisa [15:45]:

I think older women today are finding their voices, saying, hell no, we won’t go quietly into the night. We’re here, we’re present, and we’re going to be our biggest and best selves. And what’s so interesting about your story is that I wanted to give this narrator a hug. She’s carrying so much pain—guilt from caregiving, grief from her mother’s death, and a sense of being alone. There’s a lot of baggage. I wonder how much of the dating experience is mirroring that inner pain, or what you learned about that connection to grief.

Debbie [16:49]:

I learned a lot—unfortunately, after the fact. Looking back, I realized that dating didn’t make sense until I had found a self—a life that felt fulfilling. I’ve written about grieving and moving forward after widowhood, and one of the things I say is to make non-romantic connections, so life feels good. Later, I got my MFA at 56, wrote the book, took writing classes, and made connections with people.

But at the time, part of dating was guilt, part inexperience, and part of it was feeling like I didn’t necessarily deserve what I wanted. I was too afraid to be alone to say, this isn’t what I want. I learned not to settle and not to accept things that don’t feel right.

Lisa [18:39]:

I love that you bring up this idea of what we deserve. Often, we accept unacceptable behavior, saying “yes” when the inside says “no.” There’s this rebellious part in your book, though, where the voice of the woman who blogs comes in and says, Hell to the no, we’re all done. As you think about this, how did you connect to that other voice?

Debbie [19:44]:

 I wrote close to what actually happened. It’s funny; when you’re writing a book, there’s the narrator, the author at that moment, and then there’s the author looking back, with enough distance to offer wisdom and reflection. That’s just my personality. I’d be open initially, like, okay, let’s see… but then it’s like, this is ridiculous. I’d give it one more date than I should have, but I wasn’t going to be insulted or put down.

Maybe that surprised some of the men I dated. I’d come across as open, but then would say, this isn’t how grownups act. I might have been inexperienced, but I’d been in a long marriage and knew how grownups function, which many of these people didn’t.

Lisa [21:13]:

Right. And in the book, you have these moments—the widow’s diet, the checklist, the coda. They share information in unique ways, almost like an act of rebellion or sense-making. What told you this was the right choice?

Debbie [21:44]:

Well, for one thing, I’m very Type A. I try to fight it, but list-making helps me with stress and to crystalize thoughts. So, for me, it was kind of a reflection of my personality in terms of, I also was an attorney. I, you know, in law school you outline, so it was very much my kind of analytic mind. And sort of showing kind of a stressed personality. It’s a way to also show humor because it’s obsessive.

And you know, that’s kind of an obsessive person. I liked it because you want to give people—and my MFA professors talked about this—you want to give people some white space. I get nervous when I see a book and there’s no breaks at any time.

So, I wanted to have something where it felt like we’re pulling back a little bit, and you get a little different angle at coming through things. Or if something’s terribly sad, it gives the reader an intermission break before something else. I wanted this book to be funny because a lot of the dating experiences were funny, and I wanted to set off the tragedy with humor, and the lists were a way to do that.

And, to give people a break. It’s like, yeah, this is sad. Okay. Yeah. We’ve just got the death chapter. Phew. Okay, we see this, and then, you can go into the surrealistic dating chapter.

Lisa [23:21]:

I think that use of white space was helpful. I mean, one, it does add some levity, the way you frame things like the widow’s diet, but also if you are reading this book because you are a grieving widow, or you’ve experienced grief in some other way, you need relief in your experience, not just as a person who grieves, but also in consuming work where grief is happening. I thought those were nice and clever, and I really appreciated the humor. Another thing that happened to you that was also humorous and that I appreciated was your Modern Love essay.

Debbie [24:01]:

 Oh, thank you. That was in 2018. That came out right when I was trying to decide if I wanted to go back to school to get an MFA and be serious about the book. And then it just came out, and it was like, okay, this is my sign to just go forward with this.

Lisa [24:21]:

So that was your life-changing moment?

Debbie [24:24]:

One of them, yeah. I had gotten into college at 53. It was a couple years before COVID, so it was like, do I want to go back? Do I want to pay tuition? Do I want to hang out with millennials?

I mean, I wanted to do this, but how serious am I about the book? It was expensive. And I just thought, just put your efforts into it, because I could. And that was a good sign.

Lisa [24:57]:

How did getting published in Modern Love give you the confidence to embrace your role as a writer? Or did anything else happen as a result of being in The New York Times?

Debbie [25:09]:

I wish I could say yes, but it didn’t. One of the problems I had was that I had this idea for the book long before I knew how to write it. Again, I’m a former lawyer, and I’d written some essays, but I didn’t know how to write a book. I wasn’t a natural writer. I didn’t write anything that was even decent. I mean, it was really bad, and I’m a little embarrassed. I sent a few things to agents who were interested, and they weren’t good. And I didn’t realize you needed a full, finished, polished book. So, if I could change the timing on everything, I would, but I can’t.

I got in Modern Love in 2018. I had my book published in 2022. And it really wasn’t ready for publication until 2021. In 2018, I just had pieces. And I’m sure, like lots of other writers and authors out there, I had pieces of a book. One of the things I did was I went through a few editors and finally found a really awesome editor.

I won’t name her, but people can ask, and I would tell them. It’s real expensive, but I invested in a great editor because I really couldn’t write a decent book. My book recently won the gold medal in grief in the IPPYs, which is the Independent Publisher Awards.

Lisa [26:22]:

Yay! Congratulations.

Debbie [26:24]:

Thank you. And that was so reassuring because the learning curve was huge for me. It was probably about as hard, probably harder than passing the bar exam.

Lisa [26:48]:

Even when it looks easy, it isn’t. And even when people make it look easy, there’s probably a thousand stories of the hard work that they’ve put into this that you just don’t know about. I’m glad that you shared so honesty about what getting into Modern Love—which is a big deal—was like.

A lot of writers are told, “Oh my gosh, if you just get in the Modern Love column, your life is going to change. You’re going to get an agent and a book deal and this and that and the other.” And I’ve known other people who wrote amazing Modern Love stories who also didn’t have their lives changed in such big ways. It was a confidence booster and a great publication. It is nice to be able to say that in your bio. I mean, come on, it does help your bio, right?

Debbie [27:44]:

It totally helps my bio. It helps when I reach out to people. If I’m feeling insecure about reaching out to somebody, I throw that in there for sure. It made me feel good about reaching out to agents. That didn’t happen either, but you know, it made me feel good when I reached out to you to be on this podcast. I saw you on Instagram and I was like, okay, I’ll put this in. So yeah, it’s really good for that. It was a dream come true, but it didn’t change my life.

My column was about dating a guy who was a polyamorous person. Although I’ve heard from people that he really wasn’t polyamorous so much as he had an arrested development, because it wasn’t really about love. He was about his own ego. But basically, what I got from that was some nice words and letters from angry polyamorous people who said that I was putting down their way of life—which I wasn’t—but that’s pretty much the largest kind of correspondence I got from that.

Lisa [28:41]:

Yes, I can imagine all the things that people would have said or all the ways that could have gone. And it would be interesting to see what that would be like now when polyamory is much more a part of the conversation. I mean, it was there in these little sprinkled ways back in 2018, but there was that recent article in The New York Times about the 30-person polycule. That just makes my head explode anytime I think about it. It’s 30 people who are in a relationship with one another in some way. I’m not going to judge it because I don’t know, but at the same time, what I can say confidently is that it is not for me. I can’t imagine being in a relationship with that many people; it’s just not how I’m wired or what I’m interested in.

But, thinking about how we can both be bold, be brave, write our stories, and temper our expectations—I think it’s important. Because when we think that magical things are going to happen… and I would say some of the promises of the Modern Love are magical thinking. And it’s not necessarily going to happen. And that doesn’t mean you failed, or you’ve done something wrong or that this isn’t good. So just being able to embrace all those things at the same time, I think, is important.

Debbie [30:12]:

I agree. I feel like that really stands for writers and authors in general right now, because there are so many books and, I mean, I’m with a hybrid publisher. So technically, it’s an indie book. Publishing is compressing and doing strange things. So, I think it’s hard because you write a book, and you want it to do all these things and sell all these copies. The standard is so high, and you’re supposed to get all these reviews and do all this other stuff. When my book came out, I went through a depression, because it really hadn’t done what I wanted it to.

I’m also a certified yoga teacher. And I had to look at kind of the yoga principle—I hope I don’t get this wrong—of Aparigraha, which is… Letting go of said expectations and kind of looking at doing the best job you can do, and not denigrating your own efforts when you’ve done the best you can. And then letting go of a preconceived expectation, and at least for me, finding some satisfaction in smaller things, like hearing from some widowed people who did find the book valuable.

You know, hearing from some people that it did help. Or being able to do things like this, which is fun. But just, you know, doing some smaller-scale things, but not saying this was a failure, just saying this was a great effort. This was a great project, and I liked the experience of letting go of the end result and then trying to find some measures of resolution and satisfaction from there.

Lisa [31:57]:

Absolutely. I think that’s so important because it’s hard work. The bar is high, and we can become exhausted by the process. And then by the time our books come out, it can feel a little anticlimactic. We’re thinking, but it should be something else. And yeah, that discounts the hard work. So how can you always embrace the fact that you showed up, you did it, so you can go to your deathbed knowing that you did everything you could? And that’s all you can do. I mean, you can’t go back in time and do something different, nor should you. If you’ve given it your all, you’ve given it your all, the end. And I agree. Yeah. And we need to be able to embrace that.

Debbie [32:46]:

Yeah, I agree. And I think we need to also set boundaries like, okay, I tried TikTok, but you know, I mean, the idea of this is promotion. I mean, you can always do more promotion. My goodness. My inbox is so full of Facebook groups and classes with groups for every little aspect of this, that it’s really hard not to be hard on yourself or feel that you could do something differently.

I used to watch the Modern Love TV show, and I’d throw my, throw my glass at the screen because I felt like my story should’ve been on there. I had to accept, hey, I did it. It was fun. I can enjoy this. It didn’t really go anywhere, but you know, it was a cool thing to do. It was a great experience. If I can do this, I can do other things I want to do.

Lisa [33:34]:

It gives you confidence that you have what it takes to do hard things. And you have been doing hard things for a long time as a person who lost her mom, as someone who is a widow, who lost your husband, and then also all these dating challenges that you have faced.

So, you know, one of the things you are is a writer, and many people who are on this podcast are writing, and you’ve given us some different bits of writing advice. But what is your best piece of writing advice? If someone is coming to the page, especially I want you to think about that new writer, someone who has got the dream but hasn’t really gotten much down. what would you tell them?

Debbie [34:18]:

I recently taught a class for non-writers, which was helpful. For me, what’s helpful is working through things I’m thinking about. I’m very analytical. That might not be everybody. They might do it through poetry or fiction, but in general, what’s moving you? What are you feeling? What problem are you trying to work through? What question are you trying to answer?

And then from there, start writing about it in different ways until it becomes richer and more interesting and more nuanced. But sort of starting there, because, you know, if you’re not writing about something that’s interesting to you, why do it? And I think it helps to really get your mind involved. You know, what are you thinking about? What is your question? What are you trying to even resolve for yourself? And then just look at it from a whole bunch of different angles.

Lisa [35:11]:

Yeah. That’s great advice. And I’m taking an oral storytelling class right now. And one of the questions that people keep coming up with is how do you start a story? And these are first drafts of stories. This isn’t final draft stuff. We’re working towards Moth-style stories and that sort of story performance. But what’s related to what you said is you can always start with the question people always ask me about is…. Then begin writing and don’t think too hard. Just see what comes out, and you might be surprised by where you go and what you learn from that process.

Debbie [35:52]:

That totally makes sense. That was like an MFA land. We had a thing about my story is about, but what it’s really about is… Yeah. And I think it’s really helpful if you’re writing something and you can get to what it’s really about.

Lisa [36:12]:

So, your book has been out for a little bit. You’ve gone through your launch year, and you are still promoting the book because, in case you all didn’t know, promotion never ends. And grief doesn’t end, right? We move through different stages of grief. You just said that tomorrow is the 51-year anniversary of your mother’s loss, and I just want to say I’m holding space for that. I’ll be thinking about you tomorrow, and I’ll be thinking about your mom.

What’s your mom’s name?

Debbie [36:42]:

Thalia.

Lisa [36:43]:

I’ll be thinking about Thalia. I think it’s really important for us to say the names of the people we’ve lost. I’ll also be thinking about George, your husband. How do you care for yourself, especially as you head into this anniversary? And I’ll say for people that are new to the grieving process, 51 years is going to seem like a long time. And in one way, it is. And in another way, when it comes to grief, it isn’t always.

Debbie [37:14]:

For me, what I find helpful and what I’m actually doing a little bit this year, just for a bunch of other reasons, I’m giving myself permission, and I have the luxury of doing that. I’m retired and pulling back when I want to. I tend to be pretty busy, and you know, I have my little projects and people I’m following up with, and I have a ton of emails from stuff, and just sometimes just saying, okay, sometimes you just need to pull back and have quiet and peace.

It’s a little bit cliché, but what helps me if I can do it is generally yoga classes, walking. Chill exercises. I like to do that. I have a nice yoga community, you know, that type of thing. But part of it also is just kind of pulling back and deciding, you know, I have a couple groups of people who are kind of contentious and deciding, well, this isn’t the week that I feel like talking to them.

I think it’s very much giving yourself permission when you’re feeling tired, or not as strong, to do things that make you feel better. For me, there’s a great bakery in town that delivers for only $5 and has amazing treats.

Lisa [38:29]:

Treats are always good. And I love movement as a piece of this, because one thing that can happen, and obviously your grief is at a later stage, but especially I’m thinking of early grief is we lose our breath, right?

There’s a way that we can freeze into the grief response. So, the more that we can move, which you talked about beautifully, the more we allow our emotions to move through us, whether that’s grief or whether that’s a trauma response or whether that’s anything else, that can be a great way to get your emotions moving.

And they don’t always have to be sad. That’s the other thing about an anniversary is it doesn’t have to be sad. It can be joyful.

Debbie [39:13]:

For me, I mean, my anniversaries with grief are, in some ways, joyful now because, you know, my mom died 51 years ago. I’ve lived a life since then, obviously. And my husband died over 11 years ago. I’ve had a new partner now for six years. I moved a few years ago to a new place that’s by water. I find walking by water to be extremely helpful. It feels like everything kind of dissolves a little bit and loosens up. So, for me, I mean, sometimes these times are joyous in the sense of feeling a sense of progress and seeing, you know, things are definitely better.

Choices were good. Things are fine. You know, it’s almost, I don’t want to say reassuring, but you know, I do find these times to be reflective, but not necessarily really sad or anything. I mean, I don’t have a lot of visceral grief or anything at this point. And for new grievers, I know this is cliché, but having a grief therapist really helped.

Lisa [39:51]:

It does. It really does. Well, if people want to buy a copy of Available As Is or they want to contact you, what are the best ways for people to connect with you?

Debbie [40:35]:

The best way to connect with me is my website, debbieweissauthor.com. Be careful, please. There is another Debbie Weiss out there. She’s from New Jersey. She’s a brunette. She’s also a widow. She’s really nice, but I’m the blonde Debbie Weiss, author of Available As Is. Her book has a different name. It’s Maybe I Can. But mine is Available As Is. You can also find me, friend me on Facebook, or find my Facebook page.

I’m really active on Facebook. I put up a bunch of funny stuff and people chat with me. It’s kind of fun. So, you can also find me, Debbie Weiss, on Facebook. I’m @debbieweissauthor on Instagram. You can find me on Instagram. My book is on Amazon and it’s available through major bookstores as well as local independent bookstores. The most copies of my book sold at our local bookstore, Bookshop Benicia, which is just wonderful to have in our town.

Lisa [41:31]:

I love local bookstores as well. They’re the lifeblood of the writing life. And, you know, many times local bookstores are where you’ll have a book launch event, so connecting with your local bookstore is important.

Debbie [41:49]:

And they give you advice. The people who run them, the people I’ve spoken with around Danville, where I used to live, the folks there will talk to you, and they’ll chat with you and give you advice and talk to you. It’s nice to just kind of pick people’s brains.

Lisa [42:02]:

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast, Debbie. I am so glad that we were able to have this conversation. It’s just been wonderful.

Debbie [42:12]:

Thank you, Lisa. This was wonderful. I feel like we touched on some great stuff.