Encore Episode Understanding Neurodivergence with Katie Rose Guest Pryal

Lisa Cooper Ellison [3:52]
Katie Rose Guest Pryal, welcome to the Writing Your Resilience podcast. I am so happy to have you on the show today.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [4:00]
I’m so happy to be here. I have been waiting my turn to be on your podcast, Lisa. This is so up my alley, and of course, I love you so much.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [4:04]
The feeling is mutual. We’ve known each other for a long time, and we’ve had lots and lots of conversations about this, but I think this term “neurodiversity” is talked about a lot—and people just don’t know what it is.

So, before we get to that, I’m going to give you a chance to tell us anything you’d like us to know about you. Then I want you to answer the question: What is neurodiversity?

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [4:27]
Okay, sure. Right at the beginning: I am a neurodivergent author and speaker. I have bipolar disorder and I’m autistic, and like many women who are autistic, I was diagnosed later in life—not as a child.

To get a diagnosis of autism in the 1980s if you were a girl? It was probably easier to walk on the moon. So, I was diagnosed in my 40s. That’s a new diagnosis for me, but it was not a surprise—let’s put it that way.

My focus with my work is making the world more inclusive for neurodivergent people and improving our collective mental health.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [5:10]
And you do such a good job of that. I see it out in the world everywhere, and I’m so grateful for what you do.

Now I have a question for you: What is neurodiversity?

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [5:21]
Oh sure. The definition that is generally accepted—say, in dictionaries—is this: it’s the range of human differences in brain function and behavior that are part of the normal variation of the human population.

And the important part of that phrase is normal variation. So, those two words: normal variation, right?

The way I explain this is that there are lots of normal variations in the human population. How tall am I, Lisa?

Really tall, right? Six feet tall over here. I am maybe at the end of one bell curve of height, let’s say. But I am still on the bell curve of human height for women—so I’m a normal variant.

But the difference between, say, normal variants like height or other things like that—some normal variants are just a thing. Hair color, eye color, whatever. And it’s fine.

But some of those normal variants are penalized. And I’m sure, without much effort, you can think of normal variants in the human population that are penalized. If you’re different in this particular way—if your variant is this particular variant—then you’re going to be penalized for that.

Being neurodivergent—that particular variant—is another one that is penalized.

So that’s what it means to be neurodivergent. Neurodiversity is a range of human brain function that is part of the normal variation of the human population. But the deal is, although “normal” is socially constructed, it doesn’t matter if it makes your life harder—because it is a variation that is penalized by our society.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [7:16]
Yeah. We have such a narrow view of what “normal” is, and it’s so narrow that I often have a huge problem with this term. I like the idea of neurodiversity because it honors the range of experiences that people can have.

So, neurodiversity is often talked about in relation to autism spectrum disorder or ADHD. What about trauma? Do you consider trauma part of neurodiversity?

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [7:44]
Absolutely. The term was coined in 1998 by an Australian sociologist named Judy Singer. She was autistic, and she coined it in the context of autism spectrum disorder. It was a portmanteau of “neurological diversity,” and she just put them together—neurodiversity. Isn’t that great? I love portmanteaus too.

So, for a long time it was only used in the context of autism. But as time has gone on, the term has grown more generous and inclusive—and that’s wonderful.

The way I explain it to people who are new to neurodiversity—and the neurodiversity movement, which helps create more inclusion for neurodivergent people in our society—is I break it into three types.

Now, I’ll say with a huge caveat:
A) If you’re a psychologist listening to this—I’m sorry.
B) If you’re someone more familiar with neurodivergence and neurodiversity, then you’re going to know these are very blurry lines in the end.

In my new book coming out in the spring, A Life in the Tower, which is about mental health and higher education, I lay these out—and then I show how blurry they are.

But the point is, there are three ways to think about this—to divide or categorize.

The first one is developmental disorders. That’s autism, ADHD, dyslexia—things like that.

The second is psychiatric disabilities, or what we sometimes call “mental illnesses.” Those terms are theoretically interchangeable. (Once again: but, but, but.) So mental illness, right? Bipolar disorder—my own diagnosis—fits in the second type. Anxiety disorders, depression—they’re also part of that category.

Then the third type is acquired mental disabilities. Right in the middle of that is trauma—disorders like post-traumatic stress disorder, complex PTSD, concussions. So, if you have post-concussion syndrome, brain fog from COVID or from cancer treatment, or if you’ve had a stroke—anything that is an acquired mental disability—that’s column three.

Absolutely, PTSD and other trauma-related disorders fit in here.

In my novel I just finished, the main character has complex PTSD from long-term psychological abuse by her parents. At the very beginning, I say the main character is neurodivergent. She acknowledges this on the page, and it affects her ability to form relationships, make good decisions—all the ways you’re probably familiar with. You probably know more about this than I do. I have lived experience, but you study this.

So, if you sit down and look at how all these things affect our ability to make decisions, to concentrate, to plan—all the things that fall under what we might call executive functioning…

As a professor, I can say: the student who grew up in a traumatic household, the student with anxiety, and the student with ADHD—they all might struggle with planning a complex project. They could all face that same executive functioning challenge because of their neurodivergence.

That’s what matters to me. It doesn’t matter what “column” they’re in. What matters is: is your executive functioning compromised? Are you able to meet deadlines? Is procrastination something you struggle with because of anxiety or perfectionism?

The answer is: it doesn’t matter what column you’re in. Because yes—all those things.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [12:08]
And so I’m going to summarize this in a very simple way—and feel free to say that is not exactly correct. What I love is that you gave us three different ways to think about it, right?

So, there’s something you were born with—something that happens developmentally in the brain before you’re born, whether in utero or as you’re born. Then there are things that happen afterwards—these acquired ways. And psychiatric forms of neurodiversity, as I understand it, fit somewhere in the middle.

Because there is what you were born with—so the potential for mental health challenges may be based on genes or other things that happen in the body—and then there’s what happens outside.

So, we often talk about that in clinical work as the stress-diathesis model: the potential is there, and then some kind of stress happens out in the world that unlocks the genetic code and helps things manifest.

Then there are things that are largely external and complex. PTSD is one of those things, because it’s related to chronic, complex abuse that happens.

And I’m a person who has complex PTSD. You and I have been talking about this for a long time. I’ve been thinking deeply about this and about my own healing and the work that I’ve done—and thinking of myself as neurodivergent has actually been really helpful because it creates gentleness inside me.

You know, one of the things I’ve had to learn to do is acknowledge the fact that my brain works differently—and that that is okay. And when I am able to acknowledge that, I’m able to give my brain and my body what it needs. And then I function at a much higher level.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [13:49]
A lot of people ask, “Why do we need this word? Why can’t we just say, ‘I’m autistic’ or ‘I have ADHD’?”

The reason we need the word neurodivergent—and neurodiversity—is because it creates this feeling of acceptance.

One: you’re not alone. Yes, okay—so you’re in this group, right? And when you’re in a group, you aren’t alone.

It depathologizes you. You’re not a walking diagnosis—you’re a person who’s part of a group with other people who share challenges.

And then, of course, this is a group that pushes for greater acceptance outwardly, which then encourages you to have greater acceptance of yourself. And that is exactly the point of this idea of neurodiversity—of the conception of neurodiversity as a form of social acceptance.

And I’m actually not anti-medical. Now, the medical model—something else. And we probably can’t go down that road today.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [14:49]
If we went down that road, we would be here all day.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [14:52]
I’m a huge fan of modern medicine when it comes to taking care of me, okay? I have great healthcare providers, and I am not anti-psychiatry—which is a whole other thing. I’m not saying that.

What I am saying is that being part of something larger than myself has helped me appreciate myself. And I think that’s similar to what you’re saying.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [15:14]
Absolutely. It helps me appreciate myself. It helps me take better care of myself. It does help me feel less alone.

And, we’re thinking about “normal” as something that exists on a spectrum—and that I am within that. My version of what we’ll call “normal”—again, that word is problematic in so many ways—is just on the closer end of a certain pole, in terms of how my nervous system works.

And one of the things that can affect me—and was affecting you recently, because you created a post about it on Instagram—is this concept of overwhelm.

So, for context: this is being recorded in November, and my father just had heart surgery. I spent two weeks in Rochester, New York. I live in Virginia, so I was very far from home.

I spent two weeks going from a hospital to a hotel and back again, trying to advocate for my father, be there for him, support him—while also working with my clients and keeping my business going, because I did need to do some of that. He wasn’t so sick, and it wasn’t so dire that I needed to stop everything—but I pulled back on a lot of things.

And then I had myself and my own fears and wonderings about what this was going to mean. Because I am my father’s healthcare proxy, and I have some care responsibilities related to him.

So, when you posted that, I was like, “Yes. I get it.”

Tell us a little bit about why you created that post and what you want us to know about it. It has a bunch of things you can do when you’re feeling overwhelmed—and this amazing video of Katie riding her horse.

Is this… is this the silly pony?

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [17:05]
Yes, this is the pony. It’s not my horse—remember, I’m six feet tall, right? So, this is a pony that is not the right size for me, but I was riding it recently and jumping it over jumps.

She’s a good girl, and it’s always very funny to ride a little tiny pony when you’re tall. I mean, it doesn’t hurt the horse, of course—you just look silly. And it’s a lot of fun because I didn’t get to ride ponies as a kid. I was like five-nine when I was eleven, so I never had that experience of being a little girl on a pony. It just wasn’t a thing.

And I want to acknowledge before we go any further that horseback riding is an activity for people who are highly privileged—and I know that. So, I do share my experiences with horses with the world, and it is not something that everyone gets to do. I’m lucky, and I know that, and I just want to say that right now.

Fortunately, there are a lot of organizations that are bringing horses to all sorts of people now. And of course, where I live in North Carolina, there are a lot more horses in a lot more places than you might think. Actually, in other parts of the country, that’s not the case.

I would recommend checking out the Compton Cowboys on Instagram. They are an amazing organization—just like it sounds: the Compton Cowboys. They are incredible. And they have a lot of sister organizations, too.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [18:32]
So, sidebar—do they do things with equine therapy?

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [18:35]
No. They are an actual horse team located in Los Angeles. They’re incredible. So—Compton Cowboys.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [18:44]
Check it out. I’ll add that to the show notes. Okay.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [18:47]
Anyway—so the point is: overwhelm.

I’ve been feeling wildly overwhelmed myself. I actually outsourced some work to my 14-year-old son, who came through in a very big way. I realized I need to make use of him more. I paid him—his rate was the going rate for a 14-year-old boy these days. I paid him, of course.

Asking for help is like the hardest thing in the world—even from a child.

But the thing about being overwhelmed is that it’s really bad for you. Stress is bad for our bodies. And if you are feeling overwhelmed, that means you’ve been in stress for a while. That’s chronic stress. And that is really bad for you.

I mean, I made a list here—headaches, weight gain and weight loss that are unhealthy, high blood pressure… And your immune system drops. It can even cause premature birth—which is something I actually dealt with. The doctors attributed it possibly to chronic stress, which made me feel really guilty at the time.

So, there are all these horrible things—and we know this. But even worse, I guess, is that neurodivergent people are even more susceptible to chronic stress, because our world is not made for us. At all.

If you have any sensitivity to loud noises or surprising sounds—like backfiring cars—everything feels chaotic. Someone with PTSD might feel that. Or someone who’s autistic—like shopping malls during the holidays, when we have to go do stuff, right?

I don’t even want to leave my house.

Because we’re operating in a world that was not designed for people who have any kind of sensitivity to anything. It’s just chaos. Firehose.

And that is—like, can we not live in a chaos firehose? There are other ways to live. But apparently, they think we want the chaos firehose. They’re wrong.

In fact, it’s not good for anyone. But other people seem to be able to tune it out better. I would argue nobody needs this, but some of us are—say—the canaries in the coal mine. Yes, all the coal miners are getting sick. But the canaries? The canaries are really getting sick.

So, we’re the canaries, right?

And we get high sensory input. We’re expected to hide that we’re feeling bad. And that makes it even worse. “I’m fine.” I’m not fine. So not fine. But I’m fine.

And then I’ve got to make good decisions while I’m really not fine. And then everything is really bad.

So, I was like, “You know what? I need a day. Oh wait—I need two days. Maybe let’s make that three days to do absolutely nothing.”

And I actually did. This weekend, I watched a show I’d never seen before—The Morning Show. I love it. I’d never seen it before, so I turned on Episode One and I’m already halfway through Season Two.

I just wanted to watch this show and be in my room. I wanted to do some stretches because my back was hurting. I’d never dealt with that. Over the last two weeks, I’d just been ignoring the pain and taking a lot of Advil—not good.

And I wanted to just not owe anybody anything.

Yes. And I said—You know what, this is—this is selfish. This is really selfish, Katie. And I—
I said, “Sure is.” And I got to that place where I was like, you know what? I don’t feel—I’m refusing to feel guilty. And it was so dang hard.

And, you know, I owe all these people things—whatever, my extension deadline, or the phone would ring, and I’d be like, “Yeah, I’m not going to talk to them right now.” People I love, you know?

And I didn’t put on clothes—I bathed, and I put my nightgown back on. I just did that for like Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. And I’m like, “Oh, I wasted all this time with my own guilt. I should be working on my this or that.” Whatever it is—100,000 things. Name it, Lisa. What should I be working on, right?

And I didn’t. I didn’t do any of those things.

So, I was being selfish—for myself. I shut everything down. And so, when Monday came around, it was like a horse let out of the gates at a racetrack. I felt so good.

But this word—selfish—I was like, “I want to rethink this word ‘selfish.’” I really—I’m like, what does this mean? Concerning yourself with your own health and happiness? Yeah, let’s do that. Yes. Be selfish.

And yeah, shut down that guilt. Shut it down.

And it is hard because it’s in there. And before you know it, you’re like, “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t watch the next episode.” Yes, you should.

And then you should take a bath and read on your Kindle—whatever you want. Not for work. Not a workbook. Fun book.

It was amazing. And so, this morning—Monday morning—I was like, “I got to share this epiphany.” Which I’m sure everybody’s had. But I had it.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [23:52]
I think that’s—no, I think that’s the most important part: when we have that. I mean, you can be told: “Be selfish. Focus on yourself. Focus on self-care”—all the ways we talk about it—

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [24:04]
You can never hear it enough.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [24:06]
No, you can’t. And until you actually do it for yourself, it doesn’t matter.

And it’s interesting that you had that epiphany, because around the same time you were having yours, I was teaching a class—a bunch of incredible memoirists who were very understanding and flexible because I had to change some things around and do things differently due to what was going on.

And one of the people in the class said, “Don’t worry, Lisa, your dad comes first.”

And for the first time in my life, I did something different. Because I would’ve just said, “Yes, of course. Family comes first. That’s the most important thing.”

I took a deep breath, and I said, “No. I come first. My dad is really important, but he comes next.”

Because if I don’t put on my oxygen mask—that phrase we hear all the time—if I don’t take care of myself, then I’m going to end up falling over. And then who’s going to be there to help my dad?

I have to come first.

And some of the ways I’ve been helping myself come first over this period are—one—doing this grounding exercise every single day. In fact, I do it multiple times a day.

I just stand there and wiggle my toes. I take a deep breath and wiggle my toes to remind myself that I’m here and now and everything is fine.

And when you have trauma—you know, and you’re a trauma survivor, and if you have complex PTSD—your amygdala is constantly firing on high alert. Everything feels dangerous.

And when you get into a situation that is a crisis, number one—it’s going to feel normal. It’s going to feel like life is finally good. Like you’ve got this, because the intensity of the moment matches the intensity of what’s happening in your brain.

That’s why trauma survivors are fabulous in a crisis.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [25:51]
Oh yeah. Good. Nailed it.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [25:52]
Yeah. And then give me the regular life and—it’s a little more challenging.

So, I’ve been trying to remind myself, and remind my amygdala: I am here. In this present moment. And I’m breathing. Over and over again.

The only thing I’ve let myself do is cry. Because I learned this recently—this is so important—especially if you’ve been overwhelmed.

One of the things that happens when you’re overwhelmed is that your cortisol levels are through the roof. They’re so high. And that’s one of the reasons why it’s so bad for your immune system and for all these other parts of your body.

When you cry, you actually release that cortisol. You’re letting the cortisol go—and also allowing these feelings to move through your body.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [26:44]
That was always a revelation for me.

I have this wonderful therapist—she’s great. And we’ve been working through a lot of my trauma from the past. And she’s the first person I’ve felt like I could really talk to about this.

And the reason why is because she worked for Child Protective Services for, like, decades. So, when she tells me, “No, Katie, that really was bad,” I believe her.

Everybody else would say that to me, and I’d just blow it off. I’d think, you don’t know. Or I’d say, you say it’s bad because you want to be supportive. Okay.

But she says, “That was—that was…” And I have to listen to her. I have to believe her, because she knows what she’s talking about.

And she’s very kind and caring and tough at the same time. She’s perfect for me. I adore her.

And if you’re listening, T—I adore you, okay?

And this is why. She has so much credibility in my eyes.

So, one of the things—like, I’ll be recounting a story from when I was younger, and I’ll sort of laugh about it. Not sort of—actually laugh. I’ll say, “And then, hahaha, this happened!” It’s some horrible story.

And I laugh—because that’s my sort of… right? It’s my way. I’ve always laughed when I told these stories.

And then she says, “You should cry now.”

And I’m like, “What?”

And she says, “You should cry now. You should cry about that. That’s really sad.”

And then I do. I just sob. It’s like she’s got a wand. And here come the tissues. I just sob—like, the gnarliest sobs.

And 100% of the time—it’s like I meditated for an hour. All that, whatever, just drained. It’s like you opened a faucet and it just fell out.

So now I say to myself, “You should cry now.” When something happens, I say the words in my head: You should cry now.

It’s been like… years? Two years or whatever. Time is important, and it has no meaning at the same time, okay?

But yeah. You should cry now, Lisa. You should cry.

You should cry now. Yeah. I mean—it’s in my head.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [29:00]
I love that your therapist does that. I mean, one—you have an amazing therapist. I can just feel it right now. And it’s so good when we have therapists like that.

Because I remember the first time a therapist called me out on two things.

Number one: I was telling some wild, violent, horrible story—laughing. Because I can tell you the hysterical version, and I will laugh hysterically.

But people who aren’t trauma survivors are like, “Whoa…”

But people who are trauma survivors—they’ll laugh along. Because they understand. They get it.

And I’ve seen that with books like Mary Karr’s The Liars’ Club. There were some bananas traumatic things happening in that book, and I was laughing along because I’m like, “Oh yeah, I’ve been there.”

But then I had a therapist who said, “Yeah, you know, that’s not really funny.”

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [29:44]
She says, “Yeah. That’s not funny. That’s terrible.”

Lisa Cooper Ellison [29:48]
And it hit me. I finally felt seen. And it was so huge.

That’s when the tears came. And they needed to come.

Because when we’re laughing about things that truly are not—that are terrible—they’re not funny.

We’re trying to close our hearts down. We’re trying to protect ourselves.

But healing is about getting past that armor—in a safe way, with safe people.

And it sounds like you have a safe person. I have a safe person now too—but this was a different therapist.

She said that. And then—the word fine, right?

She looked at me and said, “How are you doing today?”

I said, “Fine.”

And she said, “Do you know what Aerosmith says about that? F.I.N.E.—Fucked up, Insecure, Neurotic, and Emotional.”

And I was like, “Damn.”

Because I was like, “That is so true.” That is exactly—when I say “fine,” 95% of the time, I am one or all of those things.

And so, I stopped saying it. Or when I do say it, I pause—internally. Pause. What does that mean?

And that’s been really helpful.

Because trauma survivors—and I think anyone who’s neurodivergent—we develop all these skills and strategies for handling the world in ways that look like what everyone else calls “normal.”

And one of the hardest things is that most people who would be considered to be on that narrow band of “normal” have no freaking clue how hard the rest of us work to fit in that band.

And I can tell you—I have worked on this stuff for years. I have lots of skills. And I work hard every single day to be in the band.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [31:32]
Yeah, you know, if we could widen that band—like this. Let’s just start like this. I’m holding my hands up—for those who aren’t able to see me, if you’re listening on audio or whatever—I’m holding my hands up about two inches apart to make a channel.

If we widen it by one more inch, right? How many people’s lives would be changed?

How about another inch?

Okay, and what I mean when I say that is this: let’s say I ask Lisa here, “How are you doing today?” And she gives that response—the one people make fun of: “Oh, well, my dad’s in the hospital, and I had to move through rotation for two weeks, and I was really worried about my work because I was giving this, and then…”

And then, you know, let’s talk about work, and then, “Oh my God, I asked Lisa how she was doing, and instead of just saying ‘fine,’ she gave me this litany of things.” And then people gossip.

Because you—what? You broke the social code. Yes. Okay.

The contract that says: when I ask how you’re doing, you say “fine.” Then you ask how I’m doing, and I say “fine.” And we just lie to each other all the time.

Okay, well—you stepped outside that narrow band, Lisa. You didn’t lie.

But we tell children: “Don’t lie.” Except all the time when you’re supposed to lie. Right?

So, what if we widen the band a little bit and made space for people to answer that question honestly—at least occasionally? And what if we didn’t mock them behind their backs?

For people who maybe dress a little quirky—what if we didn’t make fun of them?

Think about how much we, as adults, mock people who do not—or who are unable to—squeeze themselves into that narrow band.

There are plenty of days when I just don’t have the strength—the strength of will, or maybe just the juice—to squeeze myself inside that band.

I mean, this is called masking. Autistic masking is a very specific thing, but let’s use that word to describe masking your neurodivergence in order to fit yourself into that narrow band.

But man—after three hours of that? I need a nap.

It also adds to your stress level. It raises your cortisol. And you don’t even realize you’re doing it. You’re just like: “fitting in, fitting in…” into that narrow band.

And that’s not putting yourself first.

Because the whole point of doing it isn’t to make your life easier—it’s to make their lives easier. It’s to make sure other people don’t feel uncomfortable.

It’s not about you.

I mean, in the end, of course, it is about you. Because if you make them uncomfortable, they’ll react. There’ll be backlash, right?

But God forbid we make people who are neurotypical—or whatever—feel uncomfortable because we actually tell them that our dad’s sick.

Okay… why can’t we talk about that, though? Why can’t we ask for help and sympathy and whatever?

Anyway, so yeah. Exactly. It’s this very narrow band.

We work so hard. And then that work itself is exhausting and overwhelming. And we haven’t even done the actual thing we need to do that—

Lisa Cooper Ellison [34:36]
—day. Right?

And so, one of the things we talk about in this podcast is writing.

So, if you’re just trying to go out in the world and do the “normal” things you have to do—the typical things that are part of your day—and writing happens to be one of them…

Or you’re a new writer and you’re like, “I’m adding writing into my day…”

For you, how does your neurodivergence impact your writing?

What are the gifts that you bring to the table as a writer?
And—what are the challenges?

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [35:08]
So I have bipolar disorder and autism, which means that I—well, first, those two together are not uncommon. It’s not unusual for them to go together.

With bipolar disorder, that means sometimes I am depressed—and when I’m depressed, absolutely nothing gets done.

Fortunately, that is rare. I have excellent medical care.

On the other end, there’s mania—which is also unusual for me. And people sometimes think, “Oh, when you’re manic, you get all this stuff done.”

That’s actually not true.

When you’re manic, you can’t do anything. Your brain is cooking, but it’s not cooking good things.

If you read accounts of people who’ve experienced mania, they’ll talk about writing things down that are complete nonsense.

Now, I do feel like my energy comes in waves. But the thing is, that’s not how “work” works.

I don’t believe in the “write every day” thing. I really don’t. Because I sometimes think you need to be selfish and binge-watch The Morning Show. I think that’s a thing.

We need breaks.

But I do think that—just like with anything—we can tell ourselves: “Okay. Mind, body. You’re a writer. Do your job.”

So, I sit down, and I do my job. And some days, it’s terrible. And sometimes, it’s better.

And that’s sort of—yeah. It’s my job.

As far as being autistic, what’s actually kind of neat is that I don’t really need other people. And maybe that’s why I’m a writer.

I have very few friends. You’re one of my few friends, Lisa.

Being in large groups is very unsettling for me. Being around people is exhausting.

So, I can work for eight hours at a time without ever seeing another person—and that’s fine.

I do enjoy working at a coffee shop. Incidental human contact is okay. I like the sort of energy from others—although I wear headphones. But the energy, the observation—I’ll use that.

I’ll look at people and think, “Oh, that person’s interesting.” I make some notes. You might be in a book.

I also have this incredible ability to focus. That hyper-focusing thing is something I definitely have.

The problem with hyper-focusing is that my children will come banging on my office door and say, “Mom! We should’ve left for something an hour ago!”

And I’ll go, “Oops.”

Fortunately, I’ve gotten very good at not caring about that. I don’t freak out about schedules and things like that. It’s fine.

And then, honestly—I just sort of accidentally, in all my books—ended up writing about mental health struggles and neurodiversity. Every single one of my books.

And I didn’t even know I was doing it at first. Literally—I didn’t know. I just did it. Because that’s how I see the world.

So, it gives me a really wonderful lens. It’s the lens through which I see everything.

And I guess, as you get older, you realize the gift that you have to give the world… is you.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [38:08]
Yes, I love how you said that. Yeah.

And I think depending on how you’re neurodivergent, it will determine how you engage with your writing life—what challenges you have, which things you excel at.

I know for me personally, I feel really deeply, and I can write scenes where I can translate that really well. At the same time, because I feel really deeply, that can be exhausting.

And if I tap into a trauma vein—and I talk to a lot of writers about this—then, of course, if I’m not careful, I can re-traumatize myself. And that can be a whole wormhole I go down.

So, I think, yeah, there are lots of different ways it can affect us.

And I’m going to have you on another time where we can talk specifically about feelings and writing. Because I was teaching a webinar recently, and someone asked a great question.

I have this whole blog series I want to write around this idea of: how do you capture feelings when you don’t feel feelings?

And it’s not that you don’t feel—it’s that you don’t have good access to them, or good language for them, or a good understanding of what’s happening.

It’s not that you don’t feel.

But especially when people are experiencing highly traumatic events, it’s common to dissociate. It’s common to shut your heart down in the moment—because if you were to feel the feelings appropriate for the situation, you might not be able to do what’s needed to survive the situation.

And that creates a lot of issues in memoir, because people will say, “Everyone keeps asking me what I was feeling.”

And the answer is: “Nothing.”

And then they’re told, “That doesn’t make a good story”—especially when you say that again and again.

So, I want to talk with you about that at a later time.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [39:47]
Well, I had a piece rejected once from a magazine—they had actually requested it. And I wrote it thinking, I opened a vein on the page.

And the editor sent it back—I’ll never forget it. Unnamed editor who was famous (and you would know the name). Magazine that is well known (you would know it too).

They sent it back and said, “There’s just not enough of you here.”

And I’m like, “Are you kidding me? I had to go to bed for a week after writing this.”

And it was exactly that thing you’re saying. I thought, I can’t. There aren’t any guts left to spill.

But I also think there’s something else going on there—especially for women. There’s this expectation that we’re supposed to just blah ourselves all over the page.

There’s a lot to unpack about that—especially in online magazine writing. Yes, they convert our pain into clicks.

And I know there’s a problem with that as well. But I just remember saying, “I don’t have—there isn’t anything more. This is what it was. This is what you asked for. This is what it is.”

And she said, “Well, I just don’t get a sense that…”

And I was like, “Then you don’t understand.”

And that’s exactly right.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [40:51]
Yeah. That happens to people all the time.

And then what happens is that writers feel shame. Writers feel bad. They feel like, I failed.

When it’s much more complicated.

Number one—you didn’t fail. Okay? I want to say that clearly: You didn’t fail.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal
Thank you.

Lisa Cooper Ellison
I don’t feel that when I can’t do it. No writer is failing. It’s just that it’s more complicated, and we need to acknowledge that—and figure out ways around it. Which I’m constantly working on.

So, I want to talk with you more about that at another time. But I know you have a lot going on today, and I’m so grateful that you were here.

So, I have three questions I’m going to ask you in rapid fire.

Number one: What is the best piece of writing advice you’ve ever received?

Unknown Speaker [41:35]
Ooh. Ooh. You know Mary Oliver? My very first workshop—

Lisa Cooper Ellison [41:38]
The Mary Oliver. She’s the writer you worked with?

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [41:42]
I usually—when I tell people that—I pull out the poem she wrote about me. I have it. I can share it another time. It’s tucked in the back of White Pine, and it’s called “Katie at the Gallop.” Not kidding.

I was on the equestrian team in college, and I missed a workshop to go to a horse show—at like Holland or something. I know. The whole thing is too preposterous for words. Okay, yes—I missed my workshop with Mary Oliver to go to a horse show at Holland.

Anyway—she wrote a quatrain about me called Katie at the Gallop. This is a real story.

And she’s the one who said: “The muse does not show up for you.” Okay? That is not how that works. You don’t walk around waiting for the muse.

And she was so practical. Like, you think of this person writing about all this stuff—about nature—and she’s like, “No, no, no. You go and you sit at your desk and then you write. That’s what you do.”

There is no muse that you wait for—this whole romantic idea of “Oh, I can’t write today. I don’t have the muse.” She thought that was such horseshit. It was great.

I was like, “Okay. Writing is work. It’s great work—but you go to your desk.”

And I learned how to be a writer from her. That was the best piece of advice. And I was 19. And it stuck. So—I’m so lucky.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [43:07]
That is why you’ve been so prolific! Now I understand it all.

Because Katie can write so fast, and she writes so many things. I’m always like, “Holy moly, how does she do all that?”

Now I know—it’s because you worked with Mary Oliver, and at 19 you heard that advice. Which is amazing.

So, that’s about your writing. I want to talk about your life.

How do you tap into your resilience? What is the best strategy you’ve learned?

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [43:32]
I don’t do a good job, actually. I feel like I don’t.

The best thing I’ve done lately is find this really good therapist. She’s been a huge help.

I feel like I have a really good partner—who takes care of me—and sometimes I feel guilty about that. Because I’m a woman, and I feel like, he didn’t read the fine print and ended up with me.

And so, I don’t feel like I’m resilient, actually. But I think I must be—because I’m still here.

So, I guess the most important thing I’ve done, really, is find this person.

I can’t believe—I really cannot believe that I’m my age and I’m just now finding someone who’s helping me work through my childhood trauma. I’m like, “I wish I’d done this 15 years ago.” But oh well—found her now.

So here we are. And she’s great. She’s amazing.

And that’s helped a lot. Because now when things hit me, I’m like, “Hey, that wasn’t my fault. That was the thing’s fault.” And that’s made me more resilient.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [44:36]
And you know—I’m not surprised that you’re just now finding this person. I think it is really difficult to find a good trauma-informed therapist who truly understands how to treat trauma.

And that’s because—well, I can say from my clinical training—we did not learn how to do that. We didn’t talk about the nervous system. That’s something you learn afterward. And not everyone studies it or gets it.

I learned person-centered therapy—which is how to reflect back what someone shares, and how to be with them. And those things are great—but they do not treat trauma. Not even close.

That was such an important realization.

And I would also say, just as an invitation: we often think, wow, what if I had been able to get to this earlier? What would my life be like?

But sometimes, we’re just not ready. We have other work we have to do first. And it’s only when we’ve done that work that we become open to this next layer—the kind of work that’s necessary for our healing.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [45:41]
No, this all makes total sense.

Like, when I say, “What if I had done this when I was 33?” But when I was 33, I had two babies under the age of two.

I mean—you try to get me to go to therapy. I would’ve said, “I’m so sorry—are you going to feed them?” There was no way.

And you’re right. You’re right—I don’t think I was ready.

I think I’m ready now.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [46:01]
And I know it’s going to make this incredible life that you already have—this life filled with so many gifts that you give to other people, gifts you give to me all the time—even bigger. Even brighter.

And I’m so grateful that I’ve gotten to see how that light shines, and that I’m going to get to see it shine even brighter.

I’m very excited to see where this is going to take you.

And I’m going to ask you one last question: where can we find you?

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [46:31]
Oh! Well, my website is my first and last name dot com—katipryal.com. That’s easy.

And I’m on Instagram at @krgpryal—which is my four names: Katie Rose Guest Pryal. So, @krgpryal on Instagram.

And that’s actually where I am everywhere. That’s the handle I use for everything—so Twitter, which I occasionally use. I used to be on there all the time, and then it got weird. But I’m kind of going back. I miss my friends there.

Also, on BlueSky, Instagram, Twitter—whatever. And that’s also my Substack. That’s the most important thing.

My Substack newsletter is krgpryal.substack.com.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [47:14]
Yes—two things. This will all be in the show notes. So, if there was anything you didn’t catch, you’ll be able to find her using the links and info in the show notes.

And—sign up for her Substack. She shares just incredible stories from her life that are so honest, so clear, and so filled with the great strategies she’s learned.

I connect on a heart level with every single one of them. And I learn something new every time. And I share them in my newsletter, right?

So, it’s this great synergy—because I love reading writers whose voices resonate with me, and who teach me something in the process.

So—sign up for her Substack. You will not regret it in the least.

And I’ll say this, on top of all the great things you share: you have a very strong writing voice. So, if anyone wants to learn how to have a strong, authentic writing voice, they just need to read your Substack.

Katie Rose Guest Pryal [48:03]

Thanks for having me on the show, Lisa. It was such an honor.