Encore Episode: Recovering from Cults and Religious Trauma Through Writing with Tia Levings

Lisa Cooper Ellison [3:20]

Well, hello, Tia Levings. Welcome to the Writing Your Resilience podcast. I am so happy that you’re here today.

Tia Levings [3:35]
I’m happy to be here. I’m glad we’re finally getting this accomplished. This fall—it’s been eventful.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [3:41]
It has been quite the fall. Oh my goodness—for both of us. And you know, by the time people listen to this, fall will have passed, but I bet there are lots of listeners out there who’ve had a tough fall. I’ve talked to so many people who have, and I just want to take a deep breath…

Tia Levings [4:02]
Yes, yes—to be present. Understand seasons, how they work, and also, most of us are navigating very full lives in addition to writing. So, it’s not something that really goes away. It’s a skill we have to develop and hold. It’s happened before, and it will happen again.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [4:20]
Absolutely. And you know, I wrote about this in my newsletter: we do not write in a vacuum. We write amidst the chaos of our lives. Figuring out how in the world to do that is so important, and those deep breaths are one of those ways.

Well, we have lots to talk about today, and one of the things I’m excited about is to give you an opportunity to just share what you’d like us to know about A Well-Trained Wife, which comes out in—how many months now?

Tia Levings [4:48]
Just about nine. I’ve been saying we’re in the gestational age, because now—we were in the publishing year—but now we’re officially in a pregnancy.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [4:58]
And it’s already out for pre-order! You had a newsletter that came out just the other day—it popped into my inbox—with you holding copies of your ARCs, which was so exciting to see.

Tia Levings [5:10]
I cannot believe that moment still. To hold the whole story in tangible form… I knew it was going to be the first time I got to do that, because before it had been, you know, virtual—on my computer screen—or I had worked with just segments of it. I had never held the actual whole thing as it’s going to go to print.

You know, I’ve printed out versions of my manuscript. I was sold on the 13th draft, so I’ve definitely held it on paper before—but not with the cover, the marketing campaign info, the blurbs. It was very abundant and emotional.

I’m really grateful I didn’t do a live unboxing so I could have that experience and process it in my own time. Some things are not, you know, for public consumption—and that moment is one of them.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [6:01]
Good. I am glad you thought of that. Because, you know, this is just my thought on marriage—and I probably have thoughts on marriage that are very different than other people—but I’ve been married twice. The second time, I just let it be for my husband and me. I was like, we’re not inviting a whole bunch of people, because this isn’t a show. This is for us to make a commitment.

And you know, there’s a way that unveiling and unboxing your book is the same thing. You are bringing this baby into the world—your creation—and taking time to just hold that and let it be what it is so important.

Tia Levings [6:43]
It felt that way. The metaphor of birth really holds. I had a wave of emotions go through my body that was very similar to what labor felt like. I mean, not the actual pain—like what my uterus was doing—but I was nauseated, I was shaking, I was crying, I was laughing, I was in disbelief, and I was also settling and accepting that this happened.

In my body—because I experienced that book. I lived it in private, in solitude. People didn’t see what was happening to me. Then, when I wrote it for years—it took about eight years to write this book—most of that was in solitude, locked in my office, trying to get it done.

I’m a debut, so when I said I was writing a book, people would say, “Oh, that’s nice, honey.” They didn’t have the vision for it that I had. To hold the fruition of that vision and know that I accomplished this—that I didn’t underestimate myself and that it’s here—felt very much like a metaphorical baby. I made this happen. This came out of my head.

Even last night, when I put the photos into the newsletter, I was like, “I can’t believe that photo actually happened.” I have an arm full of my books. They’re the paperbacks—the hardcovers are coming—but this is the first time I’ve held it this way.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [8:14]
Well, it was a joy for me to see because I have gotten to be one of the midwives you’ve worked with, right? So, when I saw that, I was like—I know that baby.

Tia Levings [8:27]
You do. That baby sold because of our work together, and it’s getting accolades. When people comment on the structure, the writing, the development—that is a direct reflection of my work with you. I’m just so grateful you saw the potential in it and helped me birth it.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [8:46]
I saw it from the very first word. I know I told you the whole time. I never said, “if you get this published.” I said, “when you get this published… when these things happen.” I just knew right away.

So, we are not going to go blow-by-blow over your book, but I’m sure some people haven’t heard of you and are wondering: Who is Tia Levings? What is this book she keeps talking about? What would you like us to know about the book?

Tia Levings [9:12]
Yes. Well, first of all, it’s memoir. The Well-Trained Wife: My Escape from Christian Patriarchy tells the story of how I entered high-control religion, ended up in a religious cult, and then escaped from it.

It’s deeply relatable to anyone who grew up in the ’80s and ’90s and was even minimally aware of Christianity in America. There will be experiences in its pages that you’ll relate to.

In my case, very extreme views manifested in my relationship, and it was dangerous. The escape was visceral. Sometimes I refer to it as “I lived the prequel to The Handmaid’s Tale.” That gives you an idea of the themes: Christian nationalism, suppression and oppression of women, quiverfull mentality, homeschooling, and the deeply conservative far-right. Those are just some of the themes in the story.

Today, I educate about the abuses in Christian fundamentalism. That includes the book, but also appearances like Shiny Happy People on Amazon—which was about the Duggar family and Bill Gothard’s Institute of Basic Life Principles (IBLP) and their strategy of taking over America.

I also have a Substack column called The Anti-Fundamentalist. And what else do I do? Oh—lots of reels. Lots and lots of social media reels that explain what it’s really like to live in a fundie home.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [10:36]
Yes—and if you ever want to know, just go to her Instagram and watch those reels. You will learn so much.

As someone who got to read early drafts of this book, it’s been interesting to see how so many of the things you wrote about are appearing in the news. I’m like, holy snap—there it is! There it is!

So, I would say this is a book people need to read. If you really want to understand what’s going on in the world, this is not just your story. Any good memoir is your personal experience as it speaks to something bigger happening out in the world. I can definitely say that your book does, and I think the timing of its release will clarify how those things work together.

There are things happening in the news right now that speak directly to these issues. All you have to do is turn on whatever your favorite news program is, and you’ll see them.

There’s so much we could talk about in that area, but I want to talk today about the transformation that happened inside you while writing this. This podcast is about how writing transforms you—that transformative process. And I got to watch it happen.

You’ve talked before about how this book started as really a journal—just journaling—and then it became a novel, and then it morphed into this memoir. How did you know this was the project? When did it have legs for you?

Tia Levings [12:17]
So, I wanted to write before I wanted to write this story. I was working on a YA series and short stories. I was pursuing the goal of being a writer.

To that end, I hired my first writing coach—Jamie Morris—who was helping me with a YA trilogy that is currently still sitting at around 80% done. It hasn’t really gone anywhere.

We’d have these meetings where we’d talk about the progress I’d made and what needed to be done next. In one of those calls, I was worked up about something. I told her I hadn’t gotten to the YA assignment because I’d been working on something else on the side.

She could see the fire in it. She knew I was actively working on it. She knew what was happening in the news at the time. And she said, “You have a story. Stop what you’re doing. Write this. Get it off your chest.”

To that point, it had just been files on my computer and notes in my notebooks. I always do my morning pages and journaling in these big five-subject notebooks, and I was just pouring out my story.

I was also in active trauma therapy at the time—so there was this whole therapeutic angle to the writing process.

The point where it became a project was when Jamie said, “Stop what you’re doing and write this.” And I did.

I purged 60,000 words one week—and 60,000 words another week, about three weeks later. That gave me my first vomit draft and got me started on what was then a novel.

I had to externalize it first in novel format. So, it sat there for about five drafts…

Lisa Cooper Ellison [13:59]
So for those of you who are listening and not watching, I was just shaking my head. And you might be thinking, why is she shaking her head? Sixty thousand words in one week? If you don’t know anything about word count, that is like 250 pages. Okay, so how in the world—you must not have slept! Like, how did you get all—

Tia Levings [14:21]
No, my fingers flew like fire. I did sleep. I slept and I ate. I don’t think I got up to go to the bathroom very often, but I closed my door and just ordered the sequence of the story out. I just got the whole thing off my chest.

And to my surprise, it pretty much did fit into an arc. It’s a structured story, and there is a character arc already kind of evident in my life. So, as I poured it out, it really did feel like a catharsis—a vomit draft. I don’t call them “shitty first drafts.” I call them discovery drafts, or vomit drafts. But it was such a release, I couldn’t stop.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [15:03]
And I’m glad you didn’t, because there was so much power. I immediately saw that. And I love that you don’t call it the vomit draft.

I am not going to be able to remember who said this, so I’m sure someone will tell me—and if you’re a person who knows, please do tell me, because I always like to attribute things—but someone once said that we always talk about it in terms of the vomit draft or the shitty first draft (which Anne Lamott coined, and if you haven’t read her piece on that, it’s hilarious and I love it).

But someone else was writing about how, really, what we’re doing—and it may have been Allison K. Williams—is going to the grocery store and putting ingredients into our cart. It’s not trash that goes into the cart. It’s ingredients. We just haven’t made the meal yet.

So, the process of revision is the process of taking all the ingredients and actually making something with it. But that’s what that first draft is. You have to have the ingredients assembled. So, if you know who said this first, feel free to let me know.

But I do like thinking about it that way, because it honors the hard work that goes into writing the first draft of anything—whether it’s in your journal, in your morning pages, or something you’ve typed up to be an “official” draft. It is valuable.

Tia Levings [16:27]
It’s material. You can’t edit a blank page. That’s another thing somebody said, and I can’t remember who said it either. But when you have material to work with…

I ended up with this big monster—125,000 words. I had something to cull and rearrange and move around and, most importantly, examine.

Some of the things in that draft were the first time I had externalized them enough to see them on the page. And that act ultimately became one of the top three things I’ve ever done in my life that helped me heal—because it got it out.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [17:04]
Yes. If you are feeling like, “Oh, I have this story and I don’t know what to do with it”—whether you want to publish it or not, that doesn’t matter. The holy work of writing memoir—or anything that’s personal—is about how it heals you. That’s the part that’s sacred.

When you get it out on the page, psychologically, you allow the situation to live on the page. And as you transform it—revise it, change it, have insights about it on the page—it actually changes the story that lives not just in your brain, but in your nervous system.

Tia Levings [17:42]
That is very true to my experience. I come from a very religious background. I had a lot of magical thinking to unpack, habits to break, wishful thinking, and this constant wishing that things were different than they actually were. Also, a lot of dissociation from how things actually were.

But when you’re writing a scene and creating a narrative, you have to actually put on the page what happened. Like, you have to delineate: this happened, then this happened, then this happened. It helped me break away from the psychology I was trapped in of: “Well, I don’t want it to be that way,” or “If I pray harder, it won’t be that way.”

That was keeping me paralyzed. That was keeping me in abuse.

So, the big character arc of my life is learning to come into acceptance of what actually happened, and that I can survive it, and that I’m okay. It did not destroy me. “It” is what happened—and defining that “it” is what happens on the page.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [18:40]
Yes. Absolutely. And for people who’ve been gaslit in particular—if gaslighting is part of your experience—I was listening to something with Dr. Ramani. She’s an expert on gaslighting, so if you don’t know who she is, you need to look her up.

She was talking about how gaslighting is the purposeful manipulation of your experience. It’s not just disagreeing with you—it’s saying that your experience is wrong. It’s not even just lying to you. You know, if someone lies to you, you can say, “That’s not good,” right?

But it’s when they lie to you and then say your experience of that is wrong. Like, “You’re crazy. Something’s wrong with you.”

Tia Levings [19:20]
And both things happen in religion. They’ll tell you that how you see it, or how you experienced it or view it, is sinful. They’ll also quote scripture to you—like “Lean not unto your own understanding”—that’s one constantly thrown at you.

Like, if you see it that way, or you experience it that way, then you are wrong. The way you see it is wrong. And your insistence that it is the way you see it—if you defend that in any way—now you’re sinning. Capital S Sinning. Because you’re not trusting God and the authority that God has placed over you, which controls you from within.

Now you’re censoring and policing yourself. And so that’s an entirely different battle of escape. There’s the external escape, and then there are all these layers of internal escape. And one of them is learning how to hear yourself think—which is a nice side benefit of writing.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [20:12]
Yes. Because that’s what you do.

And that idea—that your experience of reality is not real. And not only is it not real, it’s wrong. I mean, that is gaslighting 101. That is—it’s gaslighting 101.

So, part of your work has been not just to look at your specific story, which is very powerful and has a lot of big things that happened in it, but to look at how your story fits into a larger narrative.

As we were working together doing the revisions, we spent a lot of time looking at your work. Then you were in this coaching group I was running with several other writers. And then something happened.

That “something” was the Josh Duggar trial and all of the things around that. And suddenly your story was intersecting with something else. And I watched this change happen in you—and also happen in your platform. Like, it was an internal change that had an external change.

Can you talk about that?

Tia Levings [21:18]
Yes. It was like striking the match for a fire that had already been built. Like—if you’ve seen anyone prepare for a bonfire at night, they start building up the materials well in advance. Because it’s daytime, right? You’re just building the fire. You know that at night, you’re going to light the match and set it ablaze.

That’s what happened.

The Josh Duggar story is the much wider lens of what happened to me. I’m nobody. I was just a little lady in the mountains. I wasn’t on TV. My family’s not famous. I didn’t have as many children. But the Duggars—we’re from the same group. We’re from the IBLP. We had the same lifestyle.

I knew all along—when they came on the scene in 2003, I was in the thick of my fundamentalist life. I knew from the get-go what they represented, what they were doing with the proselytizing of that show, and what kind of lifestyle evangelism they were trying to promote in the country. And it terrified me then.

And it terrified me in… what was it, 2019? 2020? 2018? Somewhere in there, when that trial happened. Because the tendency is to look at this big, beautiful family and think everything’s okay—that it’s something to admire. Which is so dangerous.

This high-control religion and the abuses that exist in that environment—they sell soft. They sell through a beautiful aesthetic. They have very gentle and appealing gateways.

And I couldn’t—by then, I had done the work. I had the language I didn’t have in 2003—of course not, I was still living it.

But by that point in the journey, I had a big fire built. I had a very established draft. I had a tight beat sheet. I had already queried 27 agents—which is how I found you.

Because I went to Jane Friedman with, “Why isn’t my query working? I know this story’s on fire.” And she said, “Well, it’s probably structure. I’m going to give you Lisa’s name. You need to work with Lisa.” That’s how I got there.

So, I’d already been doing all this work, kind of in a low-platform way. And then the trial happened. And I had language come out of my mouth. And that language could not have happened without all the work that came before.

Those reels—it was like the first draft. The way they came out of me. I just very quickly generated a lot of reels about things I never thought I would talk about. Never thought I’d say them out loud—let alone on social media.

At the same time, Ashley Renard was rising with her reels. I was learning how to do social media from her. A bunch of things came together at once.

And—supernova. It just blew up really fast.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [24:02]
And so, one of the things I want people to hear is that it can seem, on the outside, that someone’s success just happens. Like they’re a rocket flying into the stratosphere—suddenly someone lights a fire, and boom, that’s it.

But someone had to build the rocket. The fuel had to be put in. And you were doing all of that work—all of that time.

It’s the same way with bands. You know, all of a sudden, they’re so famous, and you’re like, “Where did they come from?” But they were working all the time.

There was something I noticed that happened as you did those reels, and as you began to talk about your story—not just with success on your platform, but also with getting an agent and going through the process of building the proposal, which is something you and I worked on.

In your book, there’s been a clarity around the story that’s continued to be refined this entire time. And also, a way that it’s like your purpose has been redefined—or refined. At least, that’s my observation.

I don’t know what it looks like or feels like inside you, so I’m curious—what is that?

Tia Levings [25:14]
It’s a distillation process. And it very much does feel that way inside, because a lot of layers and throughlines are coming together at one time.

So, this piece of my work—becoming a writer and learning how to write, everything that entails—is one line of it. My trauma therapy and the personal breakthroughs I’ve had is another throughline. The changes in my personal life—my children all reaching adulthood, and I’m no longer actively mothering—that’s been a really big piece.

My second husband asking for a divorce because he didn’t want to be married to a writer—that’s been the last 18 months of large change.

Seeing my story depicted on Amazon in the documentary Shiny Happy People—that was a cathartic moment that helped me clarify the actual language I’m using.

And then all the writing around the writing—there’s so much content around the book: the newsletters, the columns, the podcasts I’m on, the social media graphics that need good copy, the captions. All of it helps refine the message. All of it helps me get really clear on my boundaries—what I’m here to say, what my swim lane is, what topics I’m not going to cover.

And boundaries are an essential part of this work. There’s a lot of clarity that comes through good boundaries, and I’ve spent a lot of time articulating those in my own life. So, I think that shows. I think that’s some of the external result you’re seeing.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [26:44]
Yeah. There are two pieces I want to comment on.

One is the boundaries piece. You know, boundaries are what is okay and what is not okay for me. It’s not about changing other people—it’s about setting and creating what that fence looks like around you, and deciding what you’re going to let in.

And you know, people are going to listen to you talk about this and say, “Yeah, but Tia can do this because Tia has privilege now. She’s got all these things going on.”

But the reality is that one of the reasons you’ve gotten to this place—and it’s not the exclusive reason—is because, the whole time, you were listening to your body tell you what your yes and your no was. So that you could be really clear about where you were going.

Tia Levings [27:35]
That’s so true. There are times I’ve made a decision solely based on the fact that it didn’t feel good in my stomach—because I can hear my stomach.

Your stomach is your emotional brain. Your vagus nerve is in there. And if there’s activity happening in your stomach when something’s not landing well, that’s information you should be listening to.

I’ve spent years listening to that and learning why it’s important. Then I process that through my journaling or through my work.

I consider all of those boundaries “I” statements. They’re all about what I do, what kind of person I am, what kind of spaces I will be in.

And I rely on this skill set every single day—multiple times a day—whether it’s blocking a troll, knowing who to engage with or not, what kind of project I want to sign on for. All of it. It’s essential.

I would fear for anybody who stepped into this kind of spotlight without having done that work first.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [28:30]
Yeah. And I think one thing that happens to writers early on who are interested in publishing their work—or even just people with a dream—is that they think, “I’ve got so much to do, and if anybody gives me an opportunity, I have to say yes. I always have to say yes.”

And then we get into the trap of saying yes too many times, and we get exhausted and resentful—or whatever.

There’s also this fear that if I don’t say yes, things are going to be taken away from me. But what I’ve found is that when you can say no, and you’re clear about why something is a no—and you don’t have to explain yourself, because “no” is a complete sentence, just a period, that’s it—but when you know it for yourself and your grounded in it, people will still say yes to you.

Tia Levings [29:26]
I believe that. One of the benefits of working with you is that you have a trauma background, and you helped me infuse that into my healing. You taught me that I don’t want to retraumatize myself in sharing this work—which helped me.

You taught me “No” is a complete sentence.

And I think—if you, and to people who are listening who have a dream and want to do something big—make sure you know how to say no. It’s more important than the thing you want to tell. It’s more important than the thing you want to pursue.

You should know how to say no. You should know how to say yes. You should understand your whys. And you should have all of that articulated—so that you’re not consumed in the process.

I had done therapeutic work to make sure I wasn’t further damaged by my trauma. I don’t want to give it another day of my life.

I don’t consider the work I do as giving more to my trauma. I get that criticism sometimes—someone will say, “You just need to let go of the past.”

This has nothing to do with the past.

This is using the past—and my experience of it—to reclaim my present and my future. And to help other people from experiencing the same thing I went through.

To me, that’s redemption. Not dwelling in the past.

So, knowing all of that beforehand helps preserve me. It’s self-preservation. It’s just as important, if not more, than the book itself and the peripheral opportunities that come along for the ride.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [30:46]
Absolutely. Because there are plenty of people out there who experience outward success but don’t do this work—and it does not feel successful in the end.

There’s fallout. Or they say, “This is like a song I hate,” or “This is something I did that I absolutely hate, because I did it for all these commercial reasons, or because someone said I should, or told me it was beautiful, or whatever.”

It’s so easy for those things to happen.

And yes—you have to know your no. Even if the person who gave you one opportunity says no, someone else will say yes. And it’ll be the right yes.

So, keeping track of that is important.

And also, all of the writing you’re doing around your experience—I think Andre Dubus III said, “We write because maybe we know what happened, but we don’t know what the hell happened.” I talked with Melanie Brooks about this. It’s from her book Writing Hard Stories.

I love that quote. I’ve used it so many times.

And one of the ways we figure out what the hell happened is not just by writing our stories—but through all of that peripheral stuff. That’s one of the reasons an author platform can be so helpful.

I know so many writers are like, “Ugh, the author platform. I don’t want to do it.” Shoot—sometimes I feel that way, right? It’s extra work. I just want to write.

But the reality is, all the things you do help you make sense. They provide context and feedback that allow whatever this main thing is you’re doing to not only have legs, but to have context. And to be of service.

That’s how redemption happens—through being of service.

Tia Levings [32:24]
I agree. Having a purpose for why you’re doing it will help when the paycheck isn’t what you expected it to be.

Also, the platform angst—because it is angsty sometimes. It is draining. It is hard. It is all those things.

One of the pushbacks I get is, “Well, that’s not going to help me sell books. Social media doesn’t help you sell books.” Well, that’s not true.

I have my whole contract because of what happened on social media and the opportunities that came from it. That doesn’t mean social media is the best fit for everyone. But if you’re looking very narrowly at, “Will this Instagram post help me sell a book?”—you are looking too narrowly.

If you widen that lens—it’s big, big, big. That’s part of “what the hell happened.”

“What the hell happened” is the whole of it. Not just one little, tiny aspect or one little, tiny endeavor.

There are times when you have to evaluate if something is worth the time. For example, I don’t meet with people for free anymore when they have a lot of questions. I have office hours, and I charge for my time.

It’s not very much, but it’s enough to give them pause—to be articulate and clear about what they’re asking. And it puts me on a boundary with my time. It helps me not give something away for free.

It’s that kind of mindset that helps me pour into a platform. I think, ultimately, the whole big picture is what’s going to help me move books. That’s what’s going to sell my story: doing the work around it.

I don’t want to overuse the word peripheral—I just did it. Doesn’t it bother you when you see the same word on the same page twice? I don’t like it in conversation either. I can almost see it on the transcript—like, “Oh, we just said peripheral three times.”

Lisa Cooper Ellison [34:01]
And then we start saying it over and over, and we’re like, peripheral? Peripheral? Is that even a word? Does that—

Tia Levings [34:11]
Anyway, my point is—big picture. Taking the long view.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [34:14]
Yeah, the long view is, I think, the best way to think about it. Because when you take the long view, it’s about showing up, right?

For some people, social media is the place they want to show up. It’s authentic to them. It’s what works.

For other people, it’s not. It could be a newsletter, it could be… it could be a lot of different things. But it’s about you proving to yourself—and to other people—that you show up. That you show up consistently.

And in the process of showing up, figuring things out and developing a story that is beyond—

Tia Levings [34:45]
You.

And I would say, if you’re a reader—please know your reader. Please do your market research and know your reader.

If your reader uses social media, then you should be there. You have to go where the readers are. If your readers go to live events—go there. If they really like long newsletters, and they love really quiet interaction that goes deep—go there.

You should probably be in a few places. You don’t want to put all your eggs in one basket, and you never want to give all your attention to, say, a single social media platform.

A lot of people are reeling right now because Twitter is… and that’s where they put all their energy. Don’t do that. Diversify. It’s just like any other kind of investment portfolio.

But engaging with readers is platform. So go where they go.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [35:28]
And the more you know who your reader is, the more you can be of service.

If you want the work you’re doing—whatever that is—to have meaning, knowing who it’s for… and even just if it’s one person. If I could only give this to one person, having a really clear picture of who that is will tell you so much. And then you can extrapolate out from that place.

So, you’ve done all of this work, and now you’re in the gestational process, right? You’re in the book launch process of getting all of these things done and preparing yourself for the next stage.

Because it’s not just like you’ve arrived. You have not arrived. We never arrive.

But what is it like to claim your story?

Tia Levings [36:11]
It does feel like a pivot. It feels— to borrow from Taylor Swift—like an era. A new era I’ve stepped into.

An interesting thing is that I will turn 50 next summer, so it feels like this is happening at a… wow, 50. Wow. My kids are raised. Wow. I’m single.

That’s a big pivot. A lot of things. There’s a very clear turning in my life happening.

But what’s interesting in publishing is that it’s a product. That book is a product. And so, my book has now passed on to the product team. I don’t have a lot of say in it anymore.

The cover has been designed. It exists. The marketing people are involved. The publicist. I’m so grateful to have a team. It is so amazing to not feel alone in this process anymore.

But they’re driving it. They tell me what to do. They tell me what their process is. And so, I’m learning as we go.

And also—this is where it breaks from the whole gestational analogy—because I have to think about the next kid while I’m still pregnant with this one. I’m working on the next books. And you can’t just publish back-to-back memoirs real close together. That’s not how that works.

So, I’m developing the project that answers the questions readers will have from this book. That’s next. And then hoping to go into fiction—so I have that underway.

But in addition to that is the sustenance. Just sustaining myself. This big thing is happening next year, and this is like a little quiet season that I have left before that happens.

And self-care. Getting in what I need to get in. Life is pretty small right now. I keep things very simple. Right down to eating very simple foods, making sure I get my walks, my water, my self-care in.

Because I am preparing for this thing that’s going to happen, and I’m going to need to be on a lot when that happens.

So, I’m kind of trying to shore up before that by just embracing the quiet while I have it.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [38:08]
I’ve talked with people about this before—that there is a difference between self-care and comfort.

There’s going to come a point in this process—because it’s going to be intense, right? When you get to that book launch proper, it’s going to be intense. There’s going to be a lot of eyes on you. A lot of focus. And you’re going to get depleted, as anyone would.

And when we’re depleted, what we want is comfort. But the only way you’re going to know what comforts you—and also have enough reserve to do that—is through self-care. And self-care is proactive.

And what I hear you saying is, like, I am building my proactive processes now, so that when I get into this—even though there are going to be lots of things that are unpredictable—I know what to fall back on. And I know how to proactively care for myself to protect the energy that I do have.

Tia Levings [38:58]
Yes. And it points back to that trauma work I did while I was writing the book. I know these things about myself now because I’ve already done that work.

Now it’s just on me to implement them and maintain them.

That can look like making sure I’m scheduling some of these projects apart. For instance, if I’m filming for one thing, I don’t want to do it too close to the time when I record the audiobook for my book—because both are going to be so draining, I’m going to need rest times in between.

Or another ask I’m making is that when people want to do something that’s going to be draining for me—like filming—that I do it in a city where I have a support system. So that I have a place to land, and I can care for my nervous system when we’re off hours.

It’s those kinds of things. Just being aware of my limitations, my needs, and how to care for the soft animal of my body, as Mary Oliver says.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [39:47]
I love that—the soft animal of your body.

And one of the things you’ve taught me that you do to care for the soft animal of your body—and I didn’t even realize I did this too, but I didn’t know how important it was—is: when you have to travel, giving yourself time to arrive. Versus just getting off the plane and heading to wherever.

Tia Levings [40:08]
Well, the plane is part of my story too—because I take boats and trains.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [40:12]
That is true.

Tia Levings [40:13]
Yeah. I do not like hurling my body through space and time at fast speeds. That’s just true.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [40:21]
And that is probably a healthy thing, you know? It is a lot harder on people than they think.

You may get someplace quickly, but it doesn’t mean your body hasn’t expended a lot of energy to get there.

Tia Levings [40:33]
Which means you have a recovery period. You have to have a recovery period.

So, I’ve built in—anytime I travel (and I did that a lot this year because I basically got on a boat and have been in a suitcase since January)—the day that I get somewhere, that’s my one job. Be there. Get settled.

Don’t go out and sightsee. Just be here.

And that takes intention when you’re planning—because that’s probably going to require more time. But my body’s just been through a lot, and she needs to ground. We need to know where we are. We need to feel where we are.

And yes—that’s just part of being in the post-traumatic landscape. That’s part of how I care for—

Lisa Cooper Ellison [41:12]
Myself.

And it’s so important. Because people who have PTSD—and I don’t want to diagnose you; I’ll just say I have—

Tia Levings [41:17]
No, I have. I have C-PTSD. Complex PTSD.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [41:20]
Then you know.

Our nervous systems are wired for hypervigilance, right? And so, when you’re constantly go-go-going, you are reinforcing the hypervigilant way that your nervous system can operate. Even if you’re like, “Oh, but I do it in this calm, easy way.”

There is no calm, easy way—because your nervous system, it just… it responds to that energy.

And I have to constantly remind myself of that. I’m not saying I have that all figured out—because I don’t. I think it’s a matter of doing well, and then not doing well, and then going, “Oh yeah, I didn’t do that very well. Okay, now I know. Now I’m going to go back to these other practices.”

I have to go back to the basics. That’s what I always say. Things are out of alignment—I’ve got to go back to the basics.

As we begin to wrap up, one of the things I want to talk about is: you have a really challenging story. There was a lot of what I would call high trauma in the story. A lot of chaos. A lot of abuse. A lot of things where, if you’re in the middle of them, you would go, why in the world is this happening to me?

And if you’re reading about it, you’re going to go, how in the world could people respond in this way—or do these things?

We don’t have to talk about what those things are.

What I want to talk about is: when you got to those parts of your book that were the most difficult, what did you do to make sense of that chaos and to do the work that allowed it to be redemptive?

Tia Levings [42:52]
Yes. Okay, so this is a structural answer.

I took every chapter and every scene, and I applied a structure modality called the Plot Clock, which maps the emotional development of a scene. I have a little tiny craft book I put out about this—I co-wrote it with Jamie Morris and Joyce Sweeney. It’s their system; I just helped with the writing. It’s plot structure in a wheel instead of a line.

What happened is, I had my discovery draft, I had these scenes laid out, and in my rearrangement, I would plot them on the Plot Clock. So, I knew: Where is the low point of the scene? Where am I supposed to be turning and changing my mind? Where am I coming out and having this big climactic moment?

And then—important to my chapters—where’s the cliffhanger, so I can keep the whole book moving and maintain momentum.

The other thing I did in parallel with that—and you and I worked on this—was the distinction between situation and story. What is the story that is coming out of this situation?

It really helped me look at those really hard, hard scenes and ask: What do I need the reader to take away from this? What did I take away from it?

And that helped me decide which scenes should stay and which scenes should go. Eventually, we edited that down to 80,000 words—and my editor then gave me a little allowance back, which was so good.

But you and I whittled that thing. To pick and choose scenes—and also to allow for the development of why this hard scene is here, and what brought me to the next step. Because it is an arc. It is a progression toward freedom.

I needed to see how the scene mapped. I needed to have a plan and a map.

It’s another reason why I think writing is so helpful—because I was able to finally extrapolate some meaning from some of the really hard things I went through.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [44:40]
And I love that you had that. I’m going to make sure that resource is in the show notes.

I talk about it in terms of emotional beats, right? And the cliffhanger—that’s what I call the “trouble to come.” That’s one of the ways I describe it.

But one thing that can happen to people when they’re writing tough stories—especially when there’s a lot of high trauma—is that your nervous system has been wired to see the story in a certain way. We get stuck in the “what happened” and “how I’ve been hurt.”

And so, you can write and write and write that part of your story—that scene—so that the whole focus is on how I’ve been hurt. And what that does is it keeps you in a victim mode.

I don’t say that in a negative way. Victim equals powerless. That’s all that means, right? So, you’re in a space of powerlessness when it comes to your story.

And a really good story—and a really good life—is about finding your power, even in the most difficult of situations.

Could something still be shitty and wrong and terrible, and if you didn’t have to have it happen, you wouldn’t? Of course. You don’t have to disown that piece.

What I would call “bright-siding”—which is a touchpoint for me, something I don’t believe in—is just looking at the bright side. We’re not going to do that. We’re going to honor the pain.

If something’s hard and it hurt—it’s hard, it’s hurtful, and it’s painful.

And—how did you find your power anyway?
How did you make a decision anyway?
How did you survive anyway?

Because readers do not want to read something that’s like, “This happened, and it sucked. The end.” Right?

They do not.

Because then, you know, if their life right now is, “My life sucks,” then—is that the end? What’s the purpose of continuing?

So, we want to know: How do you continue? How do you figure it out?

And that is part of what you do. And when you do it on the page, you allow yourself to do it in your—

Tia Levings [46:39]
Life. Mm-hmm. It was an essential piece.

And that is why I got extra word count at the end—so I could build that section up more. I had the successful character arc. I did find my power. But I needed a little more word count to show that. And that allowed me to show how I was pulling that through all along.

Sometimes those improvements were subtle and small, and they just got me to the next day. That is definitely true as you go through the narrative. Sometimes she just got to the next point. Or she was just able to doubt or have a thought of her own.

And it wasn’t this big, miracle thing. It was just a series of steps that eventually brought me to that arc.

It’s important in the healing. It’s important in the writing. And it’s important in the selling. Because when the editor holds your proposal, they’re going to want to see that you did not land where you began.

And sometimes they just look real quick at the first paragraph and the last paragraph to see if they’re different.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [47:35]
They do that.

I mean, really—people are not always reading everything, my friends. So, you have to be really clear and concise. And it needs to change.

And if you’re here listening to this, and you have lived a hard story—you are here because you are amazing. You are incredible. And you have survived.

And the more you look back and you find those seeds of survival—right?—it doesn’t have to be some magical thing that happened that suddenly makes it all better. But those seeds of survival—you claim your space not just as a person who survived, but someone who is thriving and is doing well.

So yes, we want to make sure we’re always doing that. And if you have a book proposal, that you show that—that is very important. We’ve worked on that.

Tia Levings [48:19]
Yeah, it is. And it’s the proof of concept. You know, it’s the proof of concept.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [48:24]
So what is the best piece of writing advice that you’ve received?

Tia Levings [48:33]
Oh—“Quit bitching.”

Lisa Cooper Ellison [48:38]
I love that.

Tia Levings [48:39]
I have no tolerance for people who whine about being writers.

You are not forced to write. If you don’t want to write—if you would rather complain about it—go, go do that.

But writing takes so much work. You have to show up in the chair. You have to write. And if it’s not very much, then it’s not very much.

I mean, there’s going to be an ebb and a flow. Clearly, I don’t have 60,000-word weeks on the regular. That was an amazing event. I wish it could happen again. I wish it—

Lisa Cooper Ellison[49:07]
Does not happen very often. Not how it is.

Tia Levings [49:11]
Yeah. And if you want to be successful, it’s going to come with all the pieces.

You’re going to have to push through some hard stuff. You’re probably going to have to show up in ways that are challenging.

Be really clear on what you want. And if it’s not really what you want, there’s no shame in that. Just go do something else.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [49:25]
I love that. It’s beautiful and so true.

Stick with it—and don’t complain. Because complaints just take the energy out of everything.

Of course—yes—life can be hard. And—right—it’s always a “both/and.” What are you going to do with it?

We’ve talked a lot about how you nurture your resilience. Is there anything else you’d like to say about your top thing you do to nurture your resilience and keep it intact?

Tia Levings [49:53]
Yeah. I try not to apply an artificial pace.

I know what my goal is, but I don’t try to put a timeline on it—of when I think it needs to happen. Because there are so many factors that are out of my control.

I don’t have any control over external forces. I don’t have control over aspects of my health. I can’t guarantee myself success. I can’t promise myself that something’s going to happen.

I just know what I want. I’m really, really clear on what I want. And I pace myself accordingly. Daily. What can I do today?

I think productivity—and all the hacks that help you be a more productive person—are very helpful. Being disciplined is very helpful.

But I am not here—I’m not going to apply capitalism to myself. I’m not going to allow myself to be consumed by this process. My first and foremost loyalty is to me.

So yeah. Just… no artificial pace.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [50:48]
I love that.

Because the only guarantee we have is whether or not we show up, right? That’s the only thing we have control over.

And I know you and I have talked about Deep Work—it was a book you introduced me to, which I love. And I think it’s not just about showing up—it’s about the quality we bring to our showing up.

Are we coming distracted and all over the place, with other people’s agendas in our minds? Or are we coming with clarity?

And that’s what I hear—you coming with clarity.

So, your book is going to come out soon. Of course, we’ve talked about the pictures. If someone wants to pre-order your book now, how can they do that? And where’s the best place to reach you—kind of find you out in the world?

Tia Levings [51:28]
Everywhere—on all the social media platforms, I’m @TiaLevingsWriter. You can order my book anywhere books are sold. The audiobook is also available for pre-order.

Just come find me and come chat. TiaLevings.com, and Instagram is where I am most frequently. My DMs are open, and I love to hear from people.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [51:47]
And what I would say about her Instagram is that if you want to learn about how fundamentalism operates in our world, check it out for that reason.

If you’re an author and you’re like, “I want to see how someone clearly speaks about their topic,” that’s another reason to go.

And then also, she just does awesome things. And Tia is an awesome person. So, you should learn as much as you can about her and connect. I think that’s the best thing I can say.

Tia Levings [52:11]
Thank you. Thank you. I’m just me. We’ll have fun. Come sit at my table.

Lisa Cooper Ellison [52:17]
Well, and that’s the most important thing—you are just you. And you know, for anyone who has experienced a lot of trauma, just being you is the victory. That’s the goal and the victory.

It has been just a joy to watch all of these things happen and for all of who you are to blossom. So, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Tia Levings [52:37]
Thank you for having me.